FrontRowFan
Herbert Moran (7)
Hugh, that's exactly my point. Don't look for an "aggressive bopper". Look for someone who can throw reliably. That's the hooker's key role. It can win and lose games. The rest is a bonus.
2015 IRB Junior Rugby World Cup - Italy
- Thread starter Hugh Jarse
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Hugh, that's exactly my point. Don't look for an "aggressive bopper". Look for someone who can throw reliably. That's the hooker's key role. It can win and lose games. The rest is a bonus.
There will be quite a few changes because they will want to save their best players for the third game against the young Boks.
Last year they played their best team for Argentina and England their best opponents and there were a lot of changes for their easier third game against Italy.
This year the SAffers are the gun team in the pool; so I think a lot of the reserves will start next up against Italy, as they did last year, but in a different order.
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Intruder
Dave Cowper (27)
Saw the replay of the game.
Scrum time:
Orr: Decent scrummager, but when opposition scrum for long period kicks his hips out and doesn't stay in the fight. Will find it hard against Italy if he has that mindset.
McInerny: Not up to standard. Hooking for the ball is fools gold. You must build momentum forward before getting a strike at the ball (hooking more so known as walking over the ball, you can't out scrummage your opponent on one leg). Very poor start!
Sandell: His shape actually isn't too bad. My issue is that he is too small for a THP. It's a growing trend in Australia especially at junior ages.
Bench props don't see many other options maybe Fainga'a for McInerny. The other two props didn't show enough for me.
Degen: Hot and cold during the game did some things well but IMO didn't get his backline into the game besides #12. Campbell, Kellaway barely touched the ball maybe could be due to poor set piece.
The back row was very workman like and were exceptional today especially the impact of Fakaosilia. Boy, that kid has a future.
Alex Mafi would have been the starting hooker but as the team was selected he played his first game back from a Shoulder reconstruction injury. Now is in great form for Bond University premier grade side.
Scrum time:
Orr: Decent scrummager, but when opposition scrum for long period kicks his hips out and doesn't stay in the fight. Will find it hard against Italy if he has that mindset.
McInerny: Not up to standard. Hooking for the ball is fools gold. You must build momentum forward before getting a strike at the ball (hooking more so known as walking over the ball, you can't out scrummage your opponent on one leg). Very poor start!
Sandell: His shape actually isn't too bad. My issue is that he is too small for a THP. It's a growing trend in Australia especially at junior ages.
Bench props don't see many other options maybe Fainga'a for McInerny. The other two props didn't show enough for me.
Degen: Hot and cold during the game did some things well but IMO didn't get his backline into the game besides #12. Campbell, Kellaway barely touched the ball maybe could be due to poor set piece.
The back row was very workman like and were exceptional today especially the impact of Fakaosilia. Boy, that kid has a future.
Alex Mafi would have been the starting hooker but as the team was selected he played his first game back from a Shoulder reconstruction injury. Now is in great form for Bond University premier grade side.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
- Orr didn't have a lot of trouble last year against the Italy scrum and I don't expect he will this year either.
- Sandell - you're right - he is too light for a THP. I said when he was at school that he should become a hooker and I haven't given up hope. He threw to the lineout at school sometimes and was not the worst.
Not to the point but I would like Vuni Fifita to become a hooker also.
- Deegan - I've watched him at Joeys when he was three years in the Ones and this is the only game I've seen him play that was sub-standard.
- the back row needs an on-baller but there isn't one and as a group they were beaten to the breakdown too often.
- Lolo F - he was noticeable for some big hits but you don't see a lot of him in a game otherwise. I like to see backrowers, not have to look for them.
- Mafi - it will be good to see him healthy again but he is always hurt, it seems. Hopefully he will be in the mix next year. He's a beast when he is fit.
- PS - Hooker - wouldn't be surprised if LHP Pleash gets a go - he was decent throwing to the lineout at Chatswood.
They had trouble throwing to the lineout last year also (Kaitu'u and Vea) though Scoble was decent.
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- Orr didn't have a lot of trouble last year against the Italy scrum and I don't expect he will this year either.
- Sandell - you're right - he is too light for a THP. I said when he was at school that he should become a hooker and I haven't given up hope. He threw to the lineout at school sometimes and was not the worst.
Not to the point but I would like Vuni Fifita to become a hooker also.
- Deegan - I've watched him at Joeys when he was three years in the Ones and this is the only game I've seen him play that was sub-standard.
- the back row needs an on-baller but there isn't one and as a group they were beaten to the breakdown too often.
- Lolo F - he was noticeable for some big hits but you don't see a lot of him in a game otherwise. I like to see backrowers, not have to look for them.
- Mafi - it will be good to see him healthy again but he is always hurt, it seems. Hopefully he will be in the mix next year. He's a beast when he is fit.
- PS - Hooker - wouldn't be surprised if LHP Pleash gets a go - he was decent throwing to the lineout at Chatswood.
They had trouble throwing to the lineout last year also (Kaitu'u and Vea) though Scoble was decent.
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Monty Python
Ted Fahey (11)
Hugh, just playing for a grade team doesn't automatically make you a better player than one playing in a colts team. It's all relative.
Getting a run for a Gordon grade side who are coming 9th in the comp is much easier than getting a go at grade at Eastwood coming 1st. Craig is competing for a position with Waratahs hooker Hugh Roach, then second hooker for first grade is Todd Pearce, who has just returned to Australia after two of three years playing professional rugby in Scotland. Pretty tough competition.
Then there are the seasoned and successful second string grade hookers Tannous Ferris and Miles Hunkin - and all are fit. With Eastwood 2nd, 3rd and 4th grade teams all leading their competitions, there's no easy entre to grade over at Eastwood.
I understand Craig elected to stay at his home club to play rugby with his mates, which I applaud, but one wonders if he should have moved to a less successful club with a weaker stable of hookers to get an easier run in grade.
Given he was selected at the age of 18 as the second NSW U20s hooker over all other comers this year, with NSW winning the national championships convincingly and Craig getting a good 20 minutes or more in each of their three games, I think you do him a disservice by applying that simplistic yard stick of appearances in grade games. Last I heard he weighed in at 105kg and was nailing his line-out throwing.
Regardless, it will be good to see the battle for the hooker spots this coming year between the incumbent, Craig, and these others. Good news re Mafi - was wondering what happened to him:
However, perhaps this thread should return to its topic - the current U20s campaign in Italy
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Dan54
Tim Horan (67)
In the NZ/Scotland game, I have to say young boy Hunt at 10 looked not to bad, only say that because he looked nervy at start of game , and I wrote him off a bit. Also was well impressed with young blond fella at 7 (Kapa I think), geez the bugger never stopped working. Generally looked pretty good as team, with other usual suspects (Ioane,Li Gibson) all going good and looking like players who have had a bit of S15 experience, but being out of the loop with a lot of young players from home being over here nowadays, I have to say was generally happy with the boys we got coming through!
AussieDominance
Trevor Allan (34)
Whilst Wilkinson is talented he wouldn't be playing grade if it wasn't for Gordon's top four hookers going down or being unavailable (Hobden - Broken Arm, Goddard - Knee Reco, Handlin - Knee/Unavailable, Olive - Torn Pec - Reco
He is a tough kid and I have no doubt he would have played first grade eventually but he is learning on the job in first grade and it has been evident in 1st and 2nd grade games he has played.
Saying that if he plays the rest of the season in first grade knowing the rapid improvement rates of some kids he may get used to as mentioned the physicality of playing grade footy and be ideal for the Aus 20's next season.
It says as much about his attitude and work ethic that he is ahead of ex Aus A Schoolboys Hooker Hosea Fotukava in this whole process who is in the same program at Colts level and when even more injuries hit has been playing a bit of 2nd grade.
Hooker throwing can make a difference but it is not the be all and end all. They need to be useful at scrum time, strong at the breakdown attack support and clean out, and in their ball carries and tackling. If their throwing is a bit dodgy, provided they can effectively lift in the lineout others can throw for them. As @Lee Grant has pointed out, Pleash (usually prop) can throw reasonable accurately. Sandell has done similar at high school.
My observation over several years of monitoring the U20 Selections is that the Selectors have generally chosen aggressive boppers where they can, and not just for the #2 position. They have also seemed to prefer players who are regular Grade players over regular Colts players when there is a line call to be made. Perhaps it is a bit of a strength in numbers mentality, as well as respect being given to the opinions and selections of the various Directors of Rugby/Head Coaches around Clubland.
I like to see a good throw executed by a #2 but I think many selectors trade off a potential lost lineout (worst case outcome is contested possession to the bad guys) against a potential collapsed scrum (worst case - Yellow card and/or PK against), hence their preference for boppers over throwers.
Consider how long the Wobs and Tahs have stuck with TPN who has had plenty of lineout throwing yips over the years.
Returning to Italy, it will be very interesting to see Coach Thompson's response to this performance. I'm in @Lee Grants camp and think that we won't see the strongest 23 named for that game. I suspect that Thompson will start with a reasonably strong starting 15 with the dirt trackers getting named on the bench. It is critical that we get a 4 try BP victory against Italy.
Once we have scored the required 4 tries for the BP and victory looks more or less assured, I'd think that he would bench the stars and give the dirt trackers plenty of game time. This would reduce the risk of injury to the likely starters for the key game against the Saffers. That is the game we need to either win, or gain one or two Bonus Points from the loss and our rock stars need to be fresh and ready.
On that basis, I can see McInerney getting a fair bit of game time in the Italy match even though I think that he played a fair bit below par against the Samoans, but then I can't recall Fainga'a exactly setting the world on fire when he came on.
Who are the really good lineout throwing hookers who have missed out?
Our problem in the Under 20s has regularly been about getting outmuscled by the best sides who at times have made our team look like boys playing against men. I can see why the selectors look for more big guys who play with plenty of physicality.
Our problem in the Under 20s has regularly been about getting outmuscled by the best sides who at times have made our team look like boys playing against men. I can see why the selectors look for more big guys who play with plenty of physicality.
FrontRowFan
Herbert Moran (7)
What are the facilities, fields and conditions like over in Italy? The pitch looked in good condition the other night for Australia and Samoa, though it looked a bit on the warm side weather wise based on the sweat I could see. I know there are several locations, but are all games for each round at the same location, one after another? Is the schedule working well? They seem to have a good break between matches. Do we know where the 2016 JRWC will be held?
FrontRowFan
Herbert Moran (7)
Just found this link below from HJ a few pages back which spells out all the locations and matches, etc.
waiopehu oldboy
Stirling Mortlock (74)
Josh Dowsing. NZ Schools 2013 out of New Plymouth Boys High. Currently with the University club in Hamilton (team-mate of NZ U20 captain Atunaisa Moli) & Waikato's Development XV.
Brian Westlake
Arch Winning (36)
Unfortunately the best U 20's thrower was cut from the squad early. Too light. But at least he could throw and scrummage.
Side bar:
Waikato Development XV apparently "acquired" Cameron Skelton last year after he played for Samoa at U20's as a 19 year old rookie in his first year out of school.
He hasn't been selected for NZ U20's (he was born there) this year, nor Samoa (despite representing them last year as a 19 year old). Do you have any feedback on how he is going with the Waikato Mooloos, and why did he not get selected for Samoa?
I thought he was a little "raw" at last years U20 and thought that a year in NZ should have knocked the rough edges off him (like we have done in a far shorter time frame with Lukhan L-Tui) and I would have expected him to be in Samoa U20's this year.
Is he is injured?
The last time I can remember where we didn't get outmuscled was when the pack contain PAE, Peterson, Jones, Schatz, Quirk and Silva Silva. I have a memory of the boys dominating England in one of the pool games. Can't recall what year it was or the score? Anybody remember?
waiopehu oldboy
Stirling Mortlock (74)
^^^^^^^^^^ no idea @HJ, he seems to fallen off the radar completely, difficult as that may seem for a guy who's 20yo, 205cm & reputedly 140+kg............
qwerty51
Stirling Mortlock (74)
2010 we physically beat up the Saffers. Robbie Coleman was an amazing 12 and Nic White was outstanding. Got smashed in the final however.
There is a Skelton mark III floating around, who is allegedly bigger at the same age than his two elder brothers. There is a photo floating around somewhere of him at 13 or so standing next to Tala Gray and towering over him.
The photo doesn't show on my laptop, but I am using an old version of safari which doesn't always show all the pictures. It may appear on other readers browsers. vvvv
That's Will Skelton's 13 year old brother, Logan, standing next to Tala Gray. (From Tala's instagram)
waiopehu oldboy
Stirling Mortlock (74)
^^^^^^ in similar vein, I heard during NZ v Sco that there's a 3rd Ioane brother & he's allegedly "better" than Reiko or Akira............
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