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2011 Super 15 Draw

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Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
This is great for Australia with our lack of provincial comp. I take my hat off to JON, he really got us a good deal with this.

How many tests will we play a year now, 3 in june, 6 4nations and 6 on the spring tour?

Roughly 15 tests a year, depending on the spring tour.
 

Lance Free

Arch Winning (36)
I think the only rugby that is too much is against the ABs and Bokke. Playing them 3 times a year each (4 v ABs) is overkill. Looking forward to the Argies breaking it up a bit - hopefully only one or two games against each other at the most?
 
H

Hartman

Guest
This is good for those countries out there that are unable to put together a decent domestic competition. But for South Africans and New Zealanders this is a downgrade from the old format.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
I think the only rugby that is too much is against the ABs and Bokke. Playing them 3 times a year each (4 v ABs) is overkill. Looking forward to the Argies breaking it up a bit - hopefully only one or two games against each other at the most?
Thats the goose that lays the golden eggs.

Agree I'd like to see one test per opponent in the 4 Nations to keep us hungry.

Get the feeling they try and tapped this untill it breaks. Same with the S15.
 

Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
Thats the goose that lays the golden eggs.

Agree I'd like to see one test per opponent in the 4 Nations to keep us hungry.

Get the feeling they try and tapped this untill it breaks. Same with the S15.

I'd like the 4 nations to be a home and away comp. That way you negate the effects of travel to an extent.
 

Blue

Andrew Slack (58)
I think the only rugby that is too much is against the ABs and Bokke. Playing them 3 times a year each (4 v ABs) is overkill. Looking forward to the Argies breaking it up a bit - hopefully only one or two games against each other at the most?

Agreed on the tests.

However, SA and NZ don't want more local games. Never have. The derbies happen in the Currie Cup and ITM Cup. Mroe of the same will bore crowds eventually.

SA and NZ gain absolutely nothing from this new structure.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Staff member
I see the point- we've had this discussion before.

We Aussie fans would take a Currie Cup type comp and a S14 every day of the week before we'd take the new Super comp. But because we can't afford to have a domestic comp in this Third World rugby country the "Super 15", to use it's wrong name, will serve some of the purposes that a domestic comp would have:

- a tournament, within another tournament, to find out which is the best Oz team. I hope they have a trophy for it.
- expanding the base of Aussie pro players (after the Melbourne foreigners are phased out) by 25%
- extending the number of weeks that rugby union is before the Oz sporting public.
- yarda, yarda

SAffer and Kiwi fans will ask, and have asked, what is in for us? For that they shouldn't ask us. They shouldn't point the finger at the Aussies either but at their own officials for agreeing to the change

Why did SARFU and the NZRFU agree to the change?

For the lolly.
 

DPK

Peter Sullivan (51)
I don't understand how NZ and SA won't gain anything in the new format. Less travel, more chances to pit contenders vying for Test spots against each other, probably more ca-ching too.

That said, I'm all ears to the counter arguments as to why this will harm NZ and SA rugby. Hit me.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
I don't understand how NZ and SA won't gain anything in the new format. Less travel, more chances to pit contenders vying for Test spots against each other, probably more ca-ching too.

That said, I'm all ears to the counter arguments as to why this will harm NZ and SA rugby. Hit me.
It will harm the CC and ITM Cups. Every single game less in our CC knock back three levels (senior/U21/U19). Our U21 and U19 CC structure is the one to take schoolboy stars to Vodacom Cup /CC level.

NZ will cut their ITM Cup in half and SA will have one less team in our Premier CC division (7 teams).

There is one huge differense (rugby quality and money)between the CC premier and first division, the same will happen in NZ. They are about to change 7 teams into second grade ITM teams, meaning a lot of players will have to find themself another career or move abroad.
 

Blue

Andrew Slack (58)
I don't understand how NZ and SA won't gain anything in the new format. Less travel, more chances to pit contenders vying for Test spots against each other, probably more ca-ching too.

That said, I'm all ears to the counter arguments as to why this will harm NZ and SA rugby. Hit me.

You miss the point. In SA and NZ, there's enough opportunity to see players playing each other already. The issue is that the S15 is cast in stone. NZ and SA will have to scale down their local comps to fit into the calendar. Remember they don't just have the Super Franchises to think about. They have lots of other teams who would be hit hard in the pocket if they don't get local games against the bigger teams. When WP, Sharks, Bulls travel to places like George, Mpumalanga and Kimberley the smaller Unions draw bigger crowds. Do away with some of those game and SA rugby as a whole takes a hit at the development level.

It's a lot more complex than you think.

But as Lee says, SA and NZ agreed this so if they suffer, fuck'em. They agreed to the terms. Now live with it.
 

DPK

Peter Sullivan (51)
You miss the point. In SA and NZ, there's enough opportunity to see players playing each other already. The issue is that the S15 is cast in stone. NZ and SA will have to scale down their local comps to fit into the calendar. Remember they don't just have the Super Franchises to think about. They have lots of other teams who would be hit hard in the pocket if they don't get local games against the bigger teams. When WP, Sharks, Bulls travel to places like George, Mpumalanga and Kimberley the smaller Unions draw bigger crowds. Do away with some of those game and SA rugby as a whole takes a hit at the development level.

It's a lot more complex than you think.

But as Lee says, SA and NZ agreed this so if they suffer, fuck'em. They agreed to the terms. Now live with it.

I see what you mean. And I agree with Lee's statement.

But with that bolded quote, couldn't the extra home games be taken abroad? I'd imagine the Bulls would be keen to go to Soccer City again, considering the crowd one would expect they would draw. (I'm not saying this is the answer, just asking questions)
 

Blue

Andrew Slack (58)
I see what you mean. And I agree with Lee's statement.

But with that bolded quote, couldn't the extra home games be taken abroad? I'd imagine the Bulls would be keen to go to Soccer City again, considering the crowd one would expect they would draw. (I'm not saying this is the answer, just asking questions)

No not really. Support for the smaller Unions is very much a local thing and most of them are hundreds of miles away from large cities where they don't enjoy support anyway. It is important for SA development that rugby is kept in the communities. Like Paarl says, it starts at age group level.

You talking about a comp that is well over 100 years old and support is very much regional for the smaller Unions.

Something will have to give. We'll have to wait and see.
 
L

Linus

Guest
NZ and SA get more money out of the tournament, that's it.

I thought the ITM cup was struggling financially and they are looking at ways to make it profitable, so from the NZ side the coin it's all about coin, as in to pay for the ITM to stay in its current format.

As for SA it has to be about money no one wants to touch the CC.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
NZ and SA get more money out of the tournament, that's it.

I thought the ITM cup was struggling financially and they are looking at ways to make it profitable, so from the NZ side the coin it's all about coin, as in to pay for the ITM to stay in its current format.

As for SA it has to be about money no one wants to touch the CC.
Boet to be honest you have no fokken clue what the CC and NPC means for the local SA or NZ rugby supporter. Moneywise you dont have to look futher which partner brings the most arses on sheets to super rugby or which one draws the most TV viewers of rugby or which one gives Murdoch his coin.

For most or the real SA or NZ rugby lover , they could not care that much about their S15 franchise , its all about their CC or NPC province.

For any 7 year old starting with rugby in SA , the provincial rugby starts at U12 level, our provincial rugby in schools is a week and its on U12/U13/U16/U18B and U18 levels. After schoolboy its to the academies and straight into U19 CC , U21 CC. If you take this two levels away, you will see a NH threshold in their 1000000s from SA.

Just to make sure you do understand where Currie Cup Rugby comes from please read

History of the Currie Cup

by Paul Dobson

North west of Pitlochry in the Scottish Highlands is the village of Fortingal. In ancient times, they say, Pontius Pilate had a camp nearby a cold place to wash your hands in winter.

Fortingal is not an ancient village, not a century old in fact. In the village is a small church. In the churchyard is an ancient yew tree, which dates back to days before Pontius Pilate, reputed to be the oldest living vegetation in Europe. Under the yew tree is the grave of Donald Currie, the founder of Fortinga

The Currie Cup was, from the beginning, a sponsor's trophy, which is surprising considering the aggressive amateurism of the 1890s.

Donald Currie was born in Glasgow, the third son of a Greenock barber. He left school at the age of 14 and went to work in the counting house of a sugar firm, called McFie. From there, he went to Liverpool to join his brother James in the employ of the Cunard Line. Then he began to move round in the shipping world, moving up rapidly till he formed his own Steamship company in 1862. It was called Donald Currie & Co.

In 1872, Donald Currie introduced his steamers to the Cape Town run as the Castle Line. Later, on 8 March 1900, he joined with the Union Line to form the famous Union-Castle Line. He was knighted in 1881, taking "Thorough" as his motto.

In 1887, he came to South Africa for the first time. When the first foreign cricket team came to South Africa the following year, Sir Donald gave the captain, Major Warton, a cup to present to the team that played best against the tourists, with the intention that it become a floating trophy for interprovincial competition. That was the first Currie Cup.

On 19 June 1891, the Dunottar Castle left Southampton with precious cargo - the touring British rugby team and the Currie Cup with the same conditions as had applied to the cricket cup. The Currie Cup became the Holy Grail of South African rugby, especially during the years when few tests were played.

No team beat the 1891 tourists, but they reckoned that Griqualand West had played best against them - perhaps a diplomatic decision as Kimberley was then in the thrall of men such as Cecil John Rhodes and Barney Barnato.

Griquas were loath to part with it to fulfil Currie's conditions that it be used for interprovincial competition, but eventually they gave in. Teams since then have also been reluctant to part with the Currie Cup.

Sir Donald Currie was a member of Parliament for West Perthshire. He died in Sidmouth, Devon, on 13 April 1909 and was buried in Fortingall in Perthshire, a tiny town which he had built. Sheltering his grave is a yew tree, reputed to be the oldest living vegetation in Europe. There had, in ancient times, been a Roman camp near Fortingall. Pontius Pilate was supposed to have been one of its commanders.

A special memorial service was held in St Paul's Cathedral in honour of Sir Donald Currie. King Edward VII and the Prince of Wales sent messages of condolence.

In 1910, Currie's daughters - Lady Merrielees, Mrs. PA Molteno and Mrs. GAK Wisely gave – £25 000 to the University of the Cape of Good Hope, a grand sum of money for those days.

Competition for the Currie Cup has taken various forms.

Originally it used to happen by tournament at a central venue. The first tournament was in Kimberley in 1892, and the first winner was Western Province, who has been the most frequent holder of the trophy. There were 12 such tournaments, ending in Kimberley in 1920.

Later, leagues were used, starting with the home-and-away system of 1922. Sometimes the teams were divided into two groups to form a final. The present system combines both single league and final.

The first final was at Newlands in 1939, when Transvaal, captained by Fanie Louw, beat Western Province. The referee was Boy Louw, the great Springbok and Fanie's brother.

In earlier times, competition for the Currie Cup was infrequent. Between 1892 and 1934, there were 18 competitions for the Currie Cup. The next one was different - the one with the final in 1939. After 1939, the subsequent finals were 1946, 1947, 1950, 1952, 1954, 1956 and 1968. (In 1966, the league system was again used.) There has been a final every year since 1968.

The following provinces have won the Currie Cup:

Western Province: 25 times outright, 4 times shared.
Northern Transvaal: 14 times outright, 4 times shared
Transvaal: 7 times outright, once shared
Natal: 4 times outright
Griqualand West: 3 times outright
Free State: Twice outright, once shared
Border: Twice shared
Currie Cup rugby in my books is PRICELESS.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
I can already hear it:

"How can team X call themselves champions when they never played my team Y"

I am increasingly starting to dislike the whole concept.

It's great for Australia becuase this is the closest we will get here to more tier 1 rugby but SA and NZ did not need more derbies. It's a cross subsidisation miracle pulled off by JON. Fair play to him.

Squad depth is going to be critical. Injury count will be higher. The International coaches are goign to be shitting themselves in the World Cup year.

Didn't this issue occur because the SARU didn't want the comp to cross over with the CC. NZ and Oz wanted each team to play to play every other team once, then double up on the home conference, so it would have been 14 + 4 = 18 game regular season.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Blue, I don't remember you ever being so vocal against the S15 expansion before, you surely knew what the format was going to be?

Paarl has always been against it, but you seem to have changed your opinion?
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Personally, (and stated many times previously be moi and some others), I'd love to see NZ and Oz join up to form a separate domestic competition from SA. This combined comp and the CC would be played concurrently at the start of the year, around the same timing as the CC and NPC currently are. Top teams could then join up (with maybe also some Japan and Argentina (when pro) teams) to form a champions type league. This would more likely keep everyone happy, but it is a big change.
 
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