2013 EOYT

[Hugh Jarse]

Is a Grand Slam still relevant?

In the good old days a tour against the sides from the UK and Ireland involved a stack of dirt tracker and weekend warm up matches, and the touring squad was stuck with the mob that arrived on Day 1 for the entire tour. Not only was it an exercise in quality to win the Tests, but there was a large part of endurance associated with achieving a Grand Slam.

Nowdays, it is Fly in, Test 1, Test 2, Test 3, Test 4, Barbars game, fly home.

A fleeting tour of hotel rooms, sponsor opportunities, training fields, ice baths, more training fields and 5 games.

It is all about the Rugby and making money for both teams, and less of the more traditional "fun" bits.

The consequences of the game going professional.

 

[Braveheart81]

Is a Grand Slam still relevant?

I'd say that yes it is still entirely relevant because the feat is still just as difficult.

Professionalism has changed the game for all the reasons you've cited, but the same professionalism applies for both teams.

It is certainly a shame that we can no longer take 40 players on a tour that lasts a couple of months and involves lots of midweek games providing a huge opportunity to blood young players but that is now a fact of life.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

What about a Simple Undefeated Spring Tour?

Is beating all of France, England, Ireland, Wales, Italy, Barbars and USA (money in the bank on the way home) Played 7 Won 7 on one tour any less achievement than beating Wales, England, Ireland and Scotland (a Grand Slam) but losing a Barbars game - Played 5 Won 4 Lost 1?

Given our propensity to drop one test on tour, I'd take a undefeated Spring Tour as being better than a modern Grand Slam.

 

[Braveheart81]

What about a Simple Undefeated Spring Tour?

Is beating all of France, England, Ireland, Wales, Italy, Barbars and USA (money in the bank on the way home) Played 7 Won 7 on one tour any less achievement than beating Wales, England, Ireland and Scotland (a Grand Slam) but losing a Barbars game - Played 5 Won 4 Lost 1?

Given our propensity to drop one test on tour, I'd take a undefeated Spring Tour as being better than a modern Grand Slam.

The tradition has generally been to play 4 tests hence why only the occasional EOYT was a Grand Slam opportunity.

If five or more tests ever becomes the norm then you'd expect that there'd be a lot more Grand Slam Tour opportunities and that would definitely lessen the achievement because you would get more opportunities to attempt it.

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

I'd say that yes it is still entirely relevant because the feat is still just as difficult.

Professionalism has changed the game for all the reasons you've cited, but the same professionalism applies for both teams.

It is certainly a shame that we can no longer take 40 players on a tour that lasts a couple of months and involves lots of midweek games providing a huge opportunity to blood young players but that is now a fact of life.

You mean something like a Lions tour of Australia? I would imagine that the excitment and feeling that this tour generates "over there" would be the same as that here.

I for one wish these "long" tours were more frequent but given the full schedule that exists with Super Rugby and Rugby Championships I can see that they are impractical. I also believe that Rugby has more respect for its traditions and heritage than some other sports and that a "Grand Slam" tour, trying to do what they did in '84 still will generate much more interest than an EOY Spring tour.

To emphasise the feeling that a grand slam tour generates lots of people still discuss that 84 tour and the efforts of Mark Ella and Co.

 

[Braveheart81]

You mean something like a Lions tour of Australia? I would imagine that the excitment and feeling that this tour generates "over there" would be the same as that here.

I for one wish these "long" tours were more frequent but given the full schedule that exists with Super Rugby and Rugby Championships I can see that they are impractical. I also believe that Rugby has more respect for its traditions and heritage than some other sports and that a "Grand Slam" tour, trying to do what they did in '84 still will generate much more interest than an EOY Spring tour.

To emphasise the feeling that a grand slam tour generates lots of people still discuss that 84 tour and the efforts of Mark Ella and Co.

I think the biggest impracticality of these long tours these days is the cost. Outside of the Lions who can pretty much sell out every game once every four years, no other touring side can do this. Having lots of players for a midweek game against a provincial team is a loss making exercise unless you're the Lions and the game will be a sellout.

I'd also love for more longer/larger tours where more players get an opportunity but it just seems to be a financial impossibility in the days of professionalism.

Maybe the response to this is an ANZAC or SANZAR team that heads to the Northern Hemisphere once every four or so years to play a long tour. Whilst it would be a new tradition, hopefully it would have the quality to it that would enable a long tour with lots of players that is also a money making exercise.

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

I don't think you need a Southern Hemisphere "lions" team. I believe that Grand Slam tours undertaken by any of the major Southern Hemisphere nations will prove a very profitable exercise in the Old Dart. Run them only every 4 years like the Lions. You could even throw a "Lions" game in at the end at say Twickenham to help boost the funds

 

[Aussie D]

Not a grand slam tour, your not playing France.

In the 6N France don't play themselves when they achieve the Grand Slam either.

As for this being a 'Grand Slam' tour that is a misnomer. This is a Home Nations plus Italy tour, if they go through undefeated then they will have achieved the Grand Slam. Nit-picking I know.

 

[Braveheart81]

I don't think you need a Southern Hemisphere "lions" team. I believe that Grand Slam tours undertaken by any of the major Southern Hemisphere nations will prove a very profitable exercise in the Old Dart. Run them only every 4 years like the Lions. You could even throw a "Lions" game in at the end at say Twickenham to help boost the funds

I think it is profitable now when you take a squad of 30 and just play tests.

If you add a few more weeks to the tour, another 10 players and play several matches that aren't big drawcards, all of a sudden going on tour loses the ARU money.

 

[JSRF10]

As far as I know the home nation pay for 46 members for the duration of the test week, how this is split is up to the touring nation. The Irish management made this known last year when they couldn't bring some young players to NZ as the IRFU wouldn't fit the bill. Unless you get a decent offer by a club/national team there isn't much sense financially in playing mid week/extra games.

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

In the 6N France don't play themselves when they achieve the Grand Slam either.

As for this being a 'Grand Slam' tour that is a misnomer. This is a Home Nations plus Italy tour, if they go through undefeated then they will have achieved the Grand Slam. Nit-picking I know.

Grand Slam tours[edit]

A Grand Slam tour is one in which a touring national team from New Zealand, South Africa or Australia plays Test matches against all four home nations (England, Wales, Ireland and Scotland). If the tourists win all four of these games, they are said to have achieved a Grand Slam.
Grand Slams by touring teams have been achieved nine times: four times each by South Africa and New Zealand, and once by Australia. The only touring country to have achieved a "Five Nations" Grand Slam (defeating France in addition to the four home countries on the same tour) is South Africa, in its tours of 1912–13 and 1951–52.
Australia is the only country to suffer an unofficial "grand slam of defeats" against the four home nations, on their 1957–58 tour.
After 1984, Southern Hemisphere sides started to tour the British Isles more frequently, but to play fewer Tests on each tour, and thus there were no Grand Slam tours between 1984 and 1998. However, since 1998 Grand Slam tours have become quite common again, as the number of Tests on each tour has again increased, although fewer matches are now played against club or provincial teams than was formerly the case on Grand Slam tours. For example, New Zealand played only Test matches in 2005 and 2010 and played only one non-Test in 2008 (a midweek match against Munster to commemorate Munster's defeat of the All Blacks in 1978, which had been their only loss on that tour). The All Blacks' tours of 2005 and 2008 were originally planned to include only three Test matches; the late inclusion of matches against Wales and England respectively turned these into Grand Slam tours.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

./..snip./.. You could even throw a "Lions" game in at the end at say Twickenham to help boost the funds

Releasing players for a Lions Tour (and training/preparation) in todays environment would be very difficult, because with the new windows for Internationals, on the Day when the Saffers are playing the Soap Dodgers, the Darkness are playing the Single Malts at Murrayfield, Los Pumas would be playing the Boyos from the Valleys at the Arms Park, Samoa would be plating the Spud Bashers.

The Wobs wanting to play the B&I Lions would firsty have difficulty finding a suitable rugby venue - there is always Wembly. The home teams would be reluctant to take on the visitors at home with the leftovers after the B&I Lions have taken all the best talent.

The B&I Lions would be probably expected to play all visiting teams from the SH to justify the preparation etc. This means that the home teams would be missing most of their draw cards and the revenue from those games would drop.

Best to leave it as a Barbarians game and be happy.

Out of interest where does the revenue from Barbars games go? Rugby related charities or development of the game in the Tier 2 and 3 nations I would hope (after expenses have been covered.

 

[JSRF10]

Out of interest where does the revenue from Barbars games go? Rugby related charities or development of the game in the Tier 2 and 3 nations I would hope (after expenses have been covered.

They have a brief section about it on their website:

http://www.barbarianfc.co.uk/charity/

 

[nathan]

After tonight's win I'd love to see:

1. Robbo
2. Moore
3. Slipper
4. Horwill
5. Pyle
6. MMM
7. Hooper
8. Mowen
9. Genia
10. To'omua
11. Folau
12. O'Connor
13. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
14. Speight
15. Mogg

16. Hanson
17. Sio
18. Ryan
19. Fardy
20. Gill
21. White
22. Lealifano
23. Beale

With Palu, Higgers, Cummins, Godwin, Kudriani, Alexander, Douglas to round out a 30 squad. If you had to add extra hooker and scrum half, TPN and Lucas would be good additions.

 

[oztimmay]

no
23. Beale

With Palu, Higgers, Cummins, Godwin, Kudriani, Alexander, Douglas to round out a 30 squad. If you had to add extra hooker and scrum half, TPN and Lucas would be good additions.

Higgers will be out after his shoulder reconstruction. not expected to resume until pre-season 2014. Rest of the team looks great. Inman may be a bolter.

 

[Braveheart81]

So To'omua should well and truly be on this tour.

Given his progression this season where he's been injury free (touch wood), I wonder how much earlier he could have made himself an option for the Wallabies if he hadn't had so many injuries?

He seems to have missed around half of every season since he came on the scene.

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

Depending on how the first test goes this week I wouldn't be surprised to see him play a test before the end of July

 

[Brumby Runner]

Depending on how the first test goes this week I wouldn't be surprised to see him play a test before the end of July

Yes. If the Deans' experiment of JOC (James O'Connor)/KB (Kurtley Beale) at 10 fails in the first test I think there is a real possibility of Matt being called in for the later tests.

 

[Bardon]

I think in terms of the extended tours (playing club/provincial teams) it would be difficult outside of Ireland to get a sellout. Munster v NZ/Aus/SA would definitely sell out. Plus it would be a hell of a game, just look at the Munster v NZ game a few years ago. That was more memorable to people in Ireland than the actual test match.

Leinster would probably be a sellout too, but at a smaller venue. Leinster's fan base has been growing over the last few years but still has a ways to go to get on the same scale as Munster.

The Welsh Regions struggle to attract crowds even for big HEC games. So many Welsh fans feel disenfranchised due to the way the Welsh Regions were established that the majority feel no affinity with the regions in their current format.

Scotland has it even worse than the Welsh and they would find it hard to muster a large crowd. Seeing big games in Murrayfield in front of one man and his dog is a real shame. When Cheika is done at the 'Tahs maybe the Scots can nick him if Link is the next Aus coach. They really need a personality like that to shake the whole organisation from top to bottom and reconnect with their fans.

In England games against the likes of Leicester would attract large crowds, but like Leinster they would be in smaller stadia. If you played Saracens they would probably try to move the game to somewhere like Dubai.

I'd love to see longer tours by the big 3 SH teams but in this professional era ever game and decision has to have a cost/benefit analysis dome on it. The only game that would tick all the boxes for that would be Munster at Thomond park. Also it would be great for fringe players to play a midweek game that would definitely be played at test match intensity and in front of an atmosphere they would remember for the rest of their lives.

 

[jollyswagman]

Guys,
Looking for some guidance and advice here. My wife and I are planning a trip with our two young guys to the UK in November and plan on catching the Ireland / Australia match and the Wales / Australia match. I am wondering if anyone has any advice on the best way to purchase tickets? Should I book though the local ticket-tek type site or am I better off booking through an Aussie site that may have a separate ticket allocation available at different pricing?

Also love to hear of any recommendations for the best seats at Cardiff Arms Park & Landsdowne road. Is up high in the middle better than down low on the ends?