2017 Under-20 Competitions including Oceania & World U20s

[new recruit_ brisbane]

Surely Jayden Ngamanu has to be extremely unlucky to miss out.

 

[Silverado]

^^^
The return of the Super Rugby and 7s players turned one of our weak areas into a pretty strong unit. Interesting to see how the 7s boys slot back into the 15 a side with such little preparation


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[Happy to Chat]

Surely Jayden Ngamanu has to be extremely unlucky to miss out.

Big decision leaving him out for untried & untested 7's players.


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[The Honey Badger]

Sorry to see Swain miss out. To me a combination of Swain and Ha'angana would be about the strongest second row we could put together.

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Agree,

I haven't seen Blyth play, I know he was injured for much of last year and missed schoolboy champs.

He is obviously very tall, and clearly Cron must rate him very highly to get a place ahead of these 2.

 

[Silverado]

Surely Jayden Ngamanu has to be extremely unlucky to miss out.

Jayden wasn't given much of a chance given the poor service and poor options the outside backs were subjected to throughout the tournament Hopefully Stewart can fix this


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[GTPIH]

Yeah he did play against the Blues but I took it on memory that he didn't play Super Rugby yet.



Will change it - thanks.

.

Lee, I think Jack Maddocks also played at least one Super game early this season

 

[Happy to Chat]

20s needs to be longer - home and away or organised on a different basis - something akin to nrc But not nrc so you can get more u20s into the picture to see what's happened since school.
Too expensive and would undercut the clubs.

Why not select an u20 side to join in the NRC possibly with 3 or 4 Super Rugby players to boost, assist and mentor them through the comp that way the core group (PONI's or Players of National Interest), will be better prepared, the coach would be the coach for the following World Cup, he will get to know them and they him. They can then do preseason with their respective super rugby teams and a few u20 camps along the way. Final team could be selected after the Super 20s, that way any new players that shine would integrate into the team and culture quicker too. Just a thought?


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[kiap]

Why not select an u20 side to join in the NRC possibly with 3 or 4 Super Rugby players to boost, assist and mentor them through the comp

Not a bad thought. Select the squad 9-10 months out.

Taking it a bit further (and stirring things up ), provide even more continuity and put U20 players and their coach into the Shute.

Impossible, you might say. But Penrith are having 50 points put on them every week anyway at the moment. Administrators step in and take over, parachute in the U20s coach. The top 5 Penrith players stay in the first grade squad and the rest drop to the 2nds with u20s playing in their place for most of the season. Let's see these private-schooled lads riding the train out to Penrith for training. Harden them up.

But what about Queensland players, et al., - costs and logistics too steep to move their U20s to Sydney? Replicate the plan in Premier Rugby with Logan City. At the moment Logan won't cut the mustard playing at top grade. Keep the top 5 Logan players in first grade and parachute in the U20s deputy coach. Harden up the northern U20s lads by getting them on the train down to Logan for training.

You could even swap some players between the two clubs for month or so to test combinations. Players selected from each of Canberra, Melbourne, Perth get the choice of playing at home or temporarily moving for the U20s campaign.

 

[Happy to Chat]

Shouldn't be hard to organize, scrap a few fat cat salaries, train them out of Narabeen or CIS for the NRC and maybe call it grassroots development.


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[Inside Shoulder]

No. No. No.
This would replicate in U20s precisely the cloistered secretive 7s program: who says the 7s guys are the best 7s players in Oz?
Blokes seem to get added on a whim - several have been added straight out of school: Hutchison being a prime example.
The NRC solution assumes that the contenders are already identified - how will that happen?
Where is the transparent selection process?
We don't need unconnected pathways we need a single pathway whose address is known and on which anyone who cares to can see who eligible for which teams

 

[Braveheart81]

There's never going to be a single pathway to this though because some players will be in the 7s squad, some players will be in Super Rugby squads and some players will just be in club sides.

Most of the players are going to be in the Super 20s sides except for the 7s and senior Super Rugby squad members.

 

[kiap]

This would replicate in U20s precisely the cloistered secretive 7s program

Not necessarily.

The NRC solution assumes that the contenders are already identified

Yeah but selection is a separate question. This is about developing the squad.

 

[Braveheart81]

Leaving the wider selection essentially to the Super teams is also a necessity when the budget for the entire programme is so minuscule.

There's no point blowing your whole budget on selecting players and then not being able to pay a coach or get the team together to prepare.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

There's never going to be a single pathway to this though because some players will be in the 7s squad, some players will be in Super Rugby squads and some players will just be in club sides.

Most of the players are going to be in the Super 20s sides except for the 7s and senior Super Rugby squad members.

The only thing that causes me any hesitation in saying that if you want to play 7s make your election and go and play 7s is Cam Clarke.
Otherwise its an entirely different game requiring entirely different skills - if you go down that pathway you will have to leave it to come back to 15s. Gen Blue have said as much in the past.
The idea that it is a given that someone who has played only 7s for 2 years at international level will be the best player to take too the JWC is ludicrous.
I'm only using Hutchison as an example but who is to say that he has developed more quickly or more slowly than blokes who stayed inside the 15 man game? If you saw his defence on the wing against NZ schools you'd not be so sure.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Not necessarily.



Yeah but selection is a separate question. This is about developing the squad.

It may be a seperate question but it is the first question and in an underage context it has been dire and at school level is not in any way directed at identifying potential - even for U20s.
To start you need a comp to work out who is in the squad - that comp might be better if it was not based on Super but there is no other model and there is no budget.

 

[Braveheart81]

The only thing that causes me any hesitation in saying that if you want to play 7s make your election and go and play 7s is Cam Clarke.
Otherwise its an entirely different game requiring entirely different skills - if you go down that pathway you will have to leave it to come back to 15s. Gen Blue have said as much in the past.
The idea that it is a given that someone who has played only 7s for 2 years at international level will be the best player to take too the JWC is ludicrous.
I'm only using Hutchison as an example but who is to say that he has developed more quickly or more slowly than blokes who stayed inside the 15 man game? If you saw his defence on the wing against NZ schools you'd not be so sure.

I think that comes down to the coach to decide.

I tend to think that if they thought it was a close run thing they wouldn't pick the 7s player.

The shortfalls in the team in the Oceania Championship, particularly in the backs suggests to me that rolling the dice on the 7s players is worthwhile.

I don't think we've got enough quality to be ruling groups of players out.

 

[Happy to Chat]

You'd have to start somewhere, identifying players early enough (ironically NZ does it with success) adding and dropping players along the way with camps, by the way some of this would be outside of the 7s tour window an added advantage which would save being introduced to some of your fellow team mates at the JWC, with final team selection after the Oceania games.


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[Inside Shoulder]

I think that comes down to the coach to decide.

I tend to think that if they thought it was a close run thing they wouldn't pick the 7s player.

The shortfalls in the team in the Oceania Championship, particularly in the backs suggests to me that rolling the dice on the 7s players is worthwhile.

I don't think we've got enough quality to be ruling groups of players out.

There's a pattern of which this is but a part.
Contracted players - wherever they are - get the nod.
My point is not actually about those who have been selected or individual selection issues its about a principle of selection.
As matters stand it is assumed that any 7s player will be better than any uncontracted U20s player - how can that principle work?

 

[kiap]

It may be a seperate question but it is the first question and in an underage context it has been dire and at school level is not in any way directed at identifying potential - even for U20s.
To start you need a comp to work out who is in the squad - that comp might be better if it was not based on Super but there is no other model and there is no budget.

It's not only a trade-off with budget, it's a trade off with time.

Do you play an under 20 provincial comp 3 months or so before the World Champs and try to pick players on the absolute latest form?

Or is it better to play that months earlier (U19 or U20, call it what you will) in the previous year. I believe NZ does this.

There will always be changes due to injuries, and so on but we could select the wider Australian squad earlier and have them playing more rugby matches to be much better prepared. Coaching requires time to stick.

 

[Braveheart81]

There's a pattern of which this is but a part.
Contracted players - wherever they are - get the nod.
My point is not actually about those who have been selected or individual selection issues its about a principle of selection.
As matters stand it is assumed that any 7s player will be better than any uncontracted U20s player - how can that principle work?

I don't think that principle can work as a blanket rule.

I don't think the coach should be required to exclude them either.

He's selected 3 7s players which is more than normal. Two of those three were in the squad last year. The third would have been if he'd been released from the 7s squad (or not injured, I can't remember what the situation was).