ARU players pool

[fatprop]

I really think we need to look at some way to manage these S14 fringe players.

Look at the Tahs, they have too many quality props warehoused, the Force had a load of back three players, the the Brumbies centres etc etc

I know RUPA will fight for "players rights" but we really need a way to spread the wealth a bit more.

Maybe something like the NZ protected players concept, with a pool available to let all teams pick up and spread the depth of the balance.

 

[Scotty]

It will be difficult to enforce. We have a guy like JOC (James O'Connor) maybe wanting to follow Giteau to the Brumbies, then the Brumbies end up with at least 2 quality 12s and 2 quality 13s. But do you tell him that he isn't allowed to move there?

 

[fatprop]

agreed, but it is the fringe guys who can get opportunities to play, not train. Guys like Beau Robinson should be given the opportunity to play and improve, not run around for the Rats.

 

[formeropenside]

Might as well just contract all players to the ARU, have one central coach directing where he wants players to go on a particular week (the injuries effect) and sub-coaches at each "franchise" to manage the players they are given week to week.

 

[Ash]

This is unlikely, but if the Brumbies sign J'OC and Rocky plus keep Salvi, then they have Gits, Lealiifano and To'omua at 10, J'OC and T. Smith and 12, Mortlock and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 13, Chapman, Salvi and Rocky at 6 without including Kimlin or Timani as a 6. Unbelievable. Plus add in G. Smith, Moore, Alexander, Valentine...the only position they are weak in is wing and fullback, and on top of that they have unmatchable depth in loosies and inside backs.

Afraid to say that over the past few days is the first time I've been in favour of a draft too. Nothing against the Brumbies, but geez, that's some quality that I'd like to see on the park every week.

It will be difficult to enforce. We have a guy like JOC (James O'Connor) maybe wanting to follow Giteau to the Brumbies, then the Brumbies end up with at least 2 quality 12s and 2 quality 13s. But do you tell him that he isn't allowed to move there?

You can't really, other than lean on the Brumbies to release one or two of, say, Lealiifano, To'omua or T. Smith. I can imagine the cries, though, if say they release To'omua, but then Gits and Lealiifano are both crocked that season.

I think that moving players around on a week to week basis would be a bit of a farce. Maybe allow a fringe player to change teams mid-season once on a temporarily loan - like Braid and Luafutu get crocked for the Reds, then they can "loan" Robinson for the rest of the season assuming Waugh stays fit.

But a NZ-style draft makes sense to me, where teams "lock in" their top 25 or so players each year and the other teams get pick from the rest using draft picks. The only problem I have is perhaps forcing a player to go when he doesn't want to, and the raping of other teams academies using the draft.

 

[Langthorne]

The main problem with the system is that the ARU is paying the players. This means that the ARU, rather than the franchises, are paying for the 'wasted' players.

One way to mitigate the impact of this distortion is for it to be applied evenly across the Australian S14 sides ie each franchise can only get 25% of Wallaby funding (20% in 2011). This will mean that any one club will have to be judicious about how many Wallabies they have, and therefore will also need to use a good proportion of the under used players. This system might also require some kind of transparent salary structure too, and a little bit of flexibility.

Another way (the ideal situation) is to make the franchises much more profitable - at least as profitable as the overseas clubs - and then even central contracts won't be important as the franchises will be able to pay top money.

 

[PaarlBok]

Ja for sure. Think thats always been a problem for your lot. To much money in top players pockets and to less in developing young ones and I mean this positive. our lot biggest paycheck is from the provinces and only the top 30 getting something from Saru.

 

[Lee Grant]

There has been a lot of sensible discussion in this thread but just beacuse a draft system is used in NZ, doesn't mean to say it's ideal for Oz. It's not apples for apples.

Over there the 5 S14 franchises can protect 24 players who play for the unions in their bailiwick. The others have to be released in a national draft. Of course, somebody who the Crusaders want will be instructed to offer his services to Tasman in the Crusaders area - or at least, it used to be. Thus the Crusaders can protect an outsider.

That's a generalisation, and I'm sure that there's some details I've missed, but you couldn't have a draft system like that because NSW provides 60-65% of the Oz S14 players and could protect all the best ones - not that they've ever shown any expertise in that area.

I guess the only thing you could do would be to enable the 4 Super teams to be able to protect only, say, 24 of their present players in any year, including Academy players, and wait to see what happens.

You could imagine that the Force would like this arrangement, since it would enable them to cherry pick from the rugby states. This would delight NSW - not. They would wonder why they should have an Academy.

The other consideration is the vast size of our country. It is all very well for Norm Maxwell to go from Northland to Canterbury, or the Blues to the Crusaders, but to have to "force" somebody to go from Sydney to Perth, is a different matter. NZ is a tiny country geographically and even the RSA is only about the same size as the Northern Territory, roughly.

I prefer the present system which means that Beau Robinson can decide to move to the Reds, or Matt To'omua to go to the Force, because they have an opportunity to get on the park in the other franchise.

The problem is that their contracts may not have expired when they want to make the move. But I remember that when Brett Sheehan was in the NSW Academy, he was allowed to go to the Reds when they needed a scrummie, provided that NSW could have him back if they needed him.

The same should apply to contracted S14 players. Thus Josh Valentine, as 3rd string Tahs scrummie, should have been allowed to play for another Oz francise in 2008 if they needed him, and be required to return if the Tahs had injuries.

It's maybe pie in the sky - but something out of the box has to be thought about to get a bit of equity and to avoid the abomination of good players in a team that has depth in his position, not even getting in a matchday 22.

 

[Pfitzy]

You'd have to set up a temporary contracting arrangement where the franchise requesting a player can go to the pool and say "we need Player X for our three week tour to South Africa based on the following blah blah blah".

Every franchise gets an allocated number of weeks, and a protected 25. The unprotected 7 or 8 leftovers must all be in different playing positions and be justified as not fitting into the top 25.

Or something like that.

 

[Langthorne]

Having given it a bit more thought now....

I am not sure about having some kind of convoluted central draft pool.

I think that any solution has to:

maintain the integrity, identity and autonomy of each side (I doubt they'd accept anything else anyway)

be as simple as possible

be fair and equitable

make the best use of playing (and other) resources - but within the above parameters


I think that if market forces were allowed to work unhindered, the majority of Australia's best players would probably be playing overseas. That can only be changed by making the S14/15/18 as profitable as the overseas equivalents. Can that be done? I'm not sure. If the Super comp was as profitable, the even spread of players could be (generally) achieved without 'intervention'.


Given that the Super teams can't really compete with many of the overseas teams in terms of player salaries, I would like to see:


each team allocated the same amount of ARU money via direct (or indirect ie through the franchise) player payments (that may only be spent on Australian squad members) - I believe this would lead to a more even spread of top players (or at least talent). No one would be forced to move, but they could choose to move for the ARU cash.

Successful and well run teams could still attract more top players - but only through their own means

 

[Scotty]

each team allocated the same amount of ARU money via direct (or indirect ie through the franchise) player payments (that may only be spent on Australian squad members) - I believe this would lead to a more even spread of top players (or at least talent). No one would be forced to move, but they could choose to move for the ARU cash.

Successful and well run teams could still attract more top players - but only through their own means

I like this idea, might have a to think about it a bit more, but on paper it sounds reasonable.

I don't think the ARU would like it though, or trust the states with all their money.

 

[Blue]

Isn't the whole idea to build a squad that can take a team through 14 weeks and with injuries and problems along the way still do enough to win a competition?

I am not aware of any sports / comp which allows random drawing of players from a pool as and when needed, unless there is a serious issue like injuries?

Comes down to how well you can absorb injuries, manage the player pool etc.

 

[fatprop]

Isn't the whole idea to build a squad that can take a team through 14 weeks and with injuries and problems along the way still do enough to win a competition?

I am not aware of any sports / comp which allows random drawing of players from a pool as and when needed, unless there is a serious issue like injuries?

Comes down to how well you can absorb injuries, manage the player pool etc.

Agreed,

But look at the Tahs, if the squad stays the same we will have Robertson & Baxter starting with the choice of Dunning, Kepu & Palmer (the best young THP we have seen for years) for the bench. Or Frieir staying with the Tahs, the guy is a forward leader and would have been great for the Reds or now the Force.

This is in a country that isn't known for props and for the betterment of Aus rugby, the wealth needs to be spread, a bit socialistic but required IMHO.

The same with O'Conner, he looks the like our future superstar 12, going somewhere to play 15 is madness, or AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) staying at the Brumbies when he should have moved somewhere to play 13 week in, week out.

The 9s have sorted themselves out, Mitchell going to the Tahs will let him play 15 there and give Shepherd to opportunity to play 15 for the force each week etc etc

We need our best players playing in their best positions every week possible.

 

[the gambler]

some interesting views.

Personally I think the idea of securing 25 and then having the rest in a draft is not a bad idea but not sure if it would make much difference. Teams could just stack their 25 accordingly and pick up the left overs in the draft. For instance Nsw could still have Baxter Robbo dunning kepu and palmer in their 25 knowing they could pick up tommy carter in the draft as noone else would want him.

As for forcing people to move, if you made saleries more reliant on match fees then I don't think you would see any complaints. Or if it came down to having a contract or no contract then which way do you think they would go.

I completely disagree with the idea of teams having a certain amount of wallaby money. Gives no reward for bringing players up to that standard.

What are peoples thoughts on the tahs reducing their squad numbers? Any relevance to this debate?

 

[cyclopath]

I'm with fatprop on this, although I agree we may not quite be ready for the ARU Democratic Workers Co-operative Party just yet!
As a Tah fan, I would love to see Rocky back here, but more importantly want to see him in Aus rugby. NSW did OK this year with our back row, and logically Qld seems to be the best fit for him, especially with Sir McMinimum the Infirm trotting off to softer fields. The Brumbies need him less.
Deans seems to see JOC (James O'Connor) as a 15 for now, so the Brumbies move may be OK for him, but I too think he could be a cracker of a 12. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is just being wasted playing at wing or 15, and would be better served starting at 13 somewhere. I think this may happen soon at the Brumbies as Morty will probably be semi-permanently crocked before this year is out (I hope not, but it's just my gut feeling).
The prop situation is potentially going to be a bit farcical however, and Deans and the ARU should maybe be having some serious words to the relevant parties about where they might be better served.

 

[RugbyReg]

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) must be sick at being shunted around.

He should move to somewhere lacking a 13, or somewhere who's 13 from this year is threatening to move overseas.

15 McLinden
14 Hynes
13 AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
12 Barnes
11 Chambers
10 Cooper
9 Genia
8 Taylor
7 Salvi
6 Chapman
5 Horwill
4 Humphreys
3 Weekes
2 TPN
1 Daley.

 

[Lindommer]

But look at the Tahs, if the squad stays the same we will have Robinson & Baxter starting with the choice of Dunning, Kepu & Palmer (the best young THP we have seen for years) for the bench. Or Freier staying with the Tahs, the guy is a forward leader and would have been great for the Reds or now the Force. This is in a country that isn't known for props and for the betterment of Aus rugby, the wealth needs to be spread, a bit socialistic but required IMHO.

We need our best players playing in their best positions every week possible.

fp, how could you forget Superprop Jeremy Tilse?

Wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments, as I've cried long and loud here for a bit of commonsense allocating our meagre rugby resources.

My suggestions:

Dunning and Freier from the Tahs to the Force and to start every game.

To'omua or Lealiifano from the Brumbies to the Force. I'd suggest both.

Elsom, Beau Robinson and Victor Chang to the Reds (can you help here, Pedallist?). The Sultan of Brunei might also be handy.

 

[Lindommer]

I gather that's your dream Reds team for 2010, Noddy. Are Weeks and Daley up to starting matches? What about Holmes? Isn't Humphreys ready for the retirement paddock?

 

[formeropenside]

Van is probably looking down the barrel at retirement, yes, based on the last half of the 2009 season. Could still be useful as a skills (lineout) coach for the Reds next year, and might get a contract to just be a dirty dirty and add knowledge to the team.

Thats the problem with getting older - form slumps tend to become more and more permanent.

 

[fatprop]

Van is probably looking down the barrel at retirement, yes, based on the last half of the 2009 season. Could still be useful as a skills (lineout) coach for the Reds next year, and might get a contract to just be a dirty dirty and add knowledge to the team.

Thats the problem with getting older - form slumps tend to become more and more permanent.

We don't know how wounded he was, he looked pretty battered at times.