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Australian Rugby / RA

Ignoto

Peter Sullivan (51)
Would be nice if the journos ever pressed these blokes for a "then what".

OK let's go back to three teams, have Stan or Fox give us less money for our TV, meaning weve got less cash to give to the players. Oh and those guys that while not great super rugby players have left our country and or sport because they can get money elsewhere.

So we're now in a position where we get less tv money and have less players in our sport?

If this isn't a warning sign of early onset CTE injuries then I don't know what else would be.
 

Pfitzy

Nathan Sharpe (72)
is this the stuff that gets us connected with the kids?

I loved it!

Depends. Younger crowd want to scroll fast. Short attention span.

 

Ignoto

Peter Sullivan (51)
Proportionally still around the same amount, averaged per player.

But less players overall...
Sure but you're teams wage bill will go up because the three teams have to retain the "better" squad players who'd be able to go to any other professional team in the world.

With them taking more of a chunk, you've got less to have a wider squad as there's less cash to go around.

You could turn around and say, revenue will go up for the clubs because they'll be more competitive and more punters will turn up to the games. But the Brumbies have had sustained success over the years, have bugger all money and no-one from Canberra goes to watch them.

I haven't seen from these "3 club" ideas men, what the two step forwards are once we take one back?
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
Ah yes, people who have played with the teams that are never going to get cut call for other teams to get cut. Matt Burke seems to be the only ex-player I can recall recently who has gone against the grain on this.

By my count, Gits, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Moore, Lynagh and I think Morts as well have called for cutting teams. Let's shrink our way to success!
 

Confucius Say

Colin Windon (37)
We cannot sustain 5 teams because they’re not consistently competitive with NZ teams and never will be whilst we have current set up.

Getting beaten all the time flows into lots of things - confidence and belief of players, confidence and belief of the public and cohesion at national level.

We will continue to see wallaby teams play like they’ve just been introduced to each other unless we go back to 3 teams.

I feel for Melbourne and the Force but selfishly for the good of Australian rugby, this is the key first decision that must be made for the good of the game and the strength of the national team.

There is not enough cattle to feed 5 franchises and be competitive. There is enough talent for 3 strong teams and if players head overseas, then they weren’t good enough to be selected.

Going back to a meritocracy is the best thing to happen to state rugby. ACT, WA and VIC will still produce the odd player of note but will be imported teams otherwise.

A strong wallabies will feed into all levels of rugby. There is a direct correlation of our demise with the super rugby expansion.

The second thing to do is more rugby for all elite and potential elite players. More touring visits and hosting of touring teams, more possibles v probables, and more national second tier competition complemented with club comps.
 

Viking

Mark Ella (57)
We cannot sustain 5 teams because they’re not consistently competitive with NZ teams and never will be whilst we have current set up.

Getting beaten all the time flows into lots of things - confidence and belief of players, confidence and belief of the public and cohesion at national level.

We will continue to see wallaby teams play like they’ve just been introduced to each other unless we go back to 3 teams.

I feel for Melbourne and the Force but selfishly for the good of Australian rugby, this is the key first decision that must be made for the good of the game and the strength of the national team.

There is not enough cattle to feed 5 franchises and be competitive. There is enough talent for 3 strong teams and if players head overseas, then they weren’t good enough to be selected.

Going back to a meritocracy is the best thing to happen to state rugby. ACT, WA and VIC will still produce the odd player of note but will be imported teams otherwise.

A strong wallabies will feed into all levels of rugby. There is a direct correlation of our demise with the super rugby expansion.

The second thing to do is more rugby for all elite and potential elite players. More touring visits and hosting of touring teams, more possibles v probables, and more national second tier competition complemented with club comps.

More rugby for elite athletes by taking away 2 teams. So less players playing elite rugby. Makes sense.

Yes more meaningless trophies and made-up tours, that's what every sporting fan really gets behind. I can't wait to buy a Possibles jersey!
 

Dan54

David Wilson (68)
Is the $700-1400 individual or for both? Even if for both, $700/player seems very high. A quick google can find most clubs' fees in recent years, which of course vary slightly club-to-club and for age level (with juniors and women being cheaper). ~$350-450 per player seems to be the rough ball park for juniors from the Brisbane clubs I've seen

Brothers' 2022 fees across player groups, including a list of what the fees cover, is attached below for interest.
His kids were playing in Gold Coast, younest about 13-14yo was $700, and older 15-16yo was $1400. Older one actually paid more as went to a club in a higher grade comp, or seniors played in state comp. I wondered if I was paying him too much.
 

Dan54

David Wilson (68)
It's s sticky one - in pretty much every system across Australia, the individual pays their subs via the RugbyXplorer app, which has the insurance and participation fees built in.

NSW Subbies we pay by the grade:
$550 to Subbies
$1000 to Rugby Australia
$2640 insurance

At $4190, if you sign up 25 players per grade, you're starting at a rego cost of $170 per head before giving them shorts, socks, or buying jerseys. Add a physio and tape for game day, maybe one at training, ground hire, balls, bus trips, equipment, etc. and you're quickly pushing north of $300.

And that's if you actually get them to pay...

If you take out that $1000 we pay Rugby Australia for... well, nothing basically (!!!) and it would make my life a lot easier.

However, the local junior soccer starts around $350 for even the little kiddies. So not complaining too much.
I do know the thing that had me flabbergasted when I was there , even juniors were paying $200 a team or something to RA. I know the insurance thing was needed, but the fee to RA just seemed ridiculous, every $ was a burden to some families, and certainly not an incentive to get kids in game!
 

dru

David Wilson (68)
Proportionally still around the same amount, averaged per player.

But less players overall...

So reduce the funding proportionally to clubs, development, grassroots, pathways, referees, coach and ref training, etc. "Less players" means less engagement not just fewer professionals.

Ignoring ofc cutting teams means cutting states and in turn cutting fans and income.

It's not like it hasn't been attempted before. What could go wrong?
 

The Ghost of Raelene

Simon Poidevin (60)
Ah yes, people who have played with the teams that are never going to get cut call for other teams to get cut. Matt Burke seems to be the only ex-player I can recall recently who has gone against the grain on this.

By my count, Gits, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Moore, Lynagh and I think Morts as well have called for cutting teams. Let's shrink our way to success!
Has Gits said anything not half cut in the last two months? Moore has definitely been an agitator but I listen because you can feel he cares. Lynagh gets his opinions grandfathered in but I feel like he still sees it in the amateur light and from that corporate $ model since that's where he has spent his career.
 

Wallaby Man

Nev Cottrell (35)
We cannot sustain 5 teams because they’re not consistently competitive with NZ teams and never will be whilst we have current set up.

Getting beaten all the time flows into lots of things - confidence and belief of players, confidence and belief of the public and cohesion at national level.

We will continue to see wallaby teams play like they’ve just been introduced to each other unless we go back to 3 teams.

I feel for Melbourne and the Force but selfishly for the good of Australian rugby, this is the key first decision that must be made for the good of the game and the strength of the national team.

There is not enough cattle to feed 5 franchises and be competitive. There is enough talent for 3 strong teams and if players head overseas, then they weren’t good enough to be selected.

Going back to a meritocracy is the best thing to happen to state rugby. ACT, WA and VIC will still produce the odd player of note but will be imported teams otherwise.

A strong wallabies will feed into all levels of rugby. There is a direct correlation of our demise with the super rugby expansion.

The second thing to do is more rugby for all elite and potential elite players. More touring visits and hosting of touring teams, more possibles v probables, and more national second tier competition complemented with club comps.
No no no

The real question is why can’t a country of 26m people which has a higher propensity per person to engage with contact sports than any other country produce enough players for 5 teams? This isn’t trying to fill 10-15 team league, a measly 5 teams. 5 teams in any professional sporting context is ridiculously low threshold to fill. You have far bigger issues with your pathways if this is an issue.

Why can’t the 3rd largest economy of the established rugby nations produce enough players for 5 teams?

Why would we not have enough players to fill only 1 more team than wales and ireland?

These are the only questions that need to be asked. It’s a complete inditement of the game here if we cannot sustain a measly 5 teams.

What happens in the future, let’s say 20yrs when the wallabies are extremely successful. Do we ever allow the game to grow or live in fear that we will destroy the success of the game here and keep the game with 3 teams, despite having a population of 35-40m people? When do we allow and share the game with people outside the Sydney, Brisbane and Canberra?

It’s so nonsensical to retrograde the sport and compare it with a time that isn’t remotely comparable with the current professionalism in the sport. Proper professional set ups, money, more money and modern philosophy of how the game is played. It was Rob Kearny only recently reflecting on his time here where he said the standard of coaching was well below par, the facilities we inadequate and the support systems not close to irelands, but he did mention the caliber of athlete was very good. Maybe we look to solve these obvious issues.

The touring thing is gone, there is far too much power in the large leagues and not enough space in their calendars to allow any for of touring. It will never return and if you are meaning touring from our club teams then apart from Japan and amateur Argentina, you aren’t going to get high level opponents because their calendars and player priority to rest takes preference.

We also talk about cohesion etc. we already have a national team that essentially only draws from 4 sides as rarely a Force player is picked. We fail to recognize that teams performing better than us come from more collective teams than us. Even Scotland has a huge amount of players from different sides, Wales has players not really regularly playing with each other, RSA the same, etc.

We need to move on from this thinking.
 

Ignoto

Peter Sullivan (51)
We cannot sustain 5 teams because they’re not consistently competitive with NZ teams and never will be whilst we have current set up.

There is not enough cattle to feed 5 franchises and be competitive. There is enough talent for 3 strong teams and if players head overseas, then they weren’t good enough to be selected.

Going back to a meritocracy is the best thing to happen to state rugby. ACT, WA and VIC will still produce the odd player of note but will be imported teams otherwise.

A strong wallabies will feed into all levels of rugby. There is a direct correlation of our demise with the super rugby expansion.
What evidence do have that going back to three teams makes us better than 5?

Is it because history from the remnants of us being ahead of the rest of the world and that just coincided with us having 3 and not 5 teams.

Or do we believe the ex players and captains that going down to three teams creates a high performance culture with everyone fighting for a spot. If so, why stop at 3, let's go to two or 1. That'll create an ultra competitive environment.

Do we believe Ben Darwin that we need more cohesion between the players all playing across the same one or two teams. If so let's create a super super team like the Crusaders and the rest of Australian rugby can feed into it. But let's forget that International football teams barely play in the same league let alone the same club and they all still perform.

Just show us the evidence that 3 is the magical number and not any other.
 

stillmissit

Peter Johnson (47)
Another report:



So all the stuff he was reported to have said ie 'I'm here to win the cup if not I'm gone' - and the Japan job - 'I don't know what you are talking about mate. 'I take umbrage to people questioning my commitment to the Australia job.'

Slimy bastard should never have been employed. I know! I was hoping it would turn out OK but my initial instincts about the little bastard were right......
 

Wallaby Man

Nev Cottrell (35)
Makes me wonder if RA have known, which in all probability would have, but they have been keeping a stance on him leaving so a hefty payout of contract would be required from Japan to get Jones.
 

stillmissit

Peter Johnson (47)
What evidence do have that going back to three teams makes us better than 5?

Is it because history from the remnants of us being ahead of the rest of the world and that just coincided with us having 3 and not 5 teams.

Or do we believe the ex players and captains that going down to three teams creates a high performance culture with everyone fighting for a spot. If so, why stop at 3, let's go to two or 1. That'll create an ultra competitive environment.

Do we believe Ben Darwin that we need more cohesion between the players all playing across the same one or two teams. If so let's create a super super team like the Crusaders and the rest of Australian rugby can feed into it. But let's forget that International football teams barely play in the same league let alone the same club and they all still perform.

Just show us the evidence that 3 is the magical number and not any other.
Good post. Keep the 5 and let them develop or die by the number of supporters and financial support they can garner. That's the best way forward.
If not, what group of rugby supporters do you want to cut? Melbourne, Perth or ACT, I'm for keeping them all, we live in a huge country and need feeders from all areas.
 

stillmissit

Peter Johnson (47)
Makes me wonder if Rugby Australia have known, which in all probability would have, but they have been keeping a stance on him leaving so a hefty payout of contract would be required from Japan to get Jones.
That sounds smarter than they have shown themselves so far..
 

The Ghost of Raelene

Simon Poidevin (60)
The Ben Darwin thing is cherry picked to support it. If he wasn't a former pro we wouldn't give a shit. Everyone knows cohesion is a good thing but quality players are worth more. They point to Ireland but the French are made up of players from 9 different Clubs.

My concern for the talk of cutting a side looks past Super Rugby and makes me scared for what would happen to those junior systems. We see the current U16/19s tournament going on and the Force almost/should have beaten the Reds in the 19s. Yes, I get it they all recruit by this age but they are providing further elite development spots in the country and if the Force were cut those pathways die as well.
 
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