Australian Rugby / RA

[stillmissit]

I will not be supporting shrink to greatness 2.0 in any way, shape or form. Even self inflicted buy the Rebels management. Any more than my refusal to support shrink to greatness 1.0. RA need to be very clear with the intent and planning to get my support. Huge scepticism is called for on the back of everything they have "achieved" in Super and recently how they have led the management of the Wallabies. What a fucking shit-show. We are well past trusting a bloke turning up saying "I'm from RA and I'm here to help." (paraphrasing Reagan)

As you say, If they get that rationale right, I'm in. Full hog.

I'm not particularly hopeful or optimistic.

Have some faith Dru, there is fuck all else to hang onto at this stage. Spoke to a guy I know who is high up in the Rugby community and he reckons the structure and people is looking better than it has been for a long time. So abject failure may have some upside, nowhere else to go, or hide the bullshit.

 

[dru]

Have some faith Dru, there is fuck all else to hang onto at this stage. Spoke to a guy I know who is high up in the Rugby community and he reckons the structure and people is looking better than it has been for a long time. So abject failure may have some upside, nowhere else to go, or hide the bullshit.

I hear you. Still I’m out of faith.

 

[stillmissit]

I hear you. Still I’m out of faith.

When all else is lost, it is all a human can hang onto. The end result might surprise both of us, but you can guarantee it won't be as good as I hope nor as bad as you expect.

 

[Froggy]

Lots of well meaning comment, some overly emotional, some extremely negative, some cautiously positive.
The reality is, nothing all that radical is going to change in 2024, and a lot of what happens next will depend on 2024
Some facts:
Fact: Australian rugby is at a low point, following a chaotic and disasterous WC, our lowest ranking in the professional era, and RA and many Super franchises bleeding cash
Fact: There will be a Super Rugby competition in 2024
Fact: We have a new coach and management set-up, which show some early signs of improvement, but are way too early to get to excited about yet
Fact: There will be a Rugby Championship and Bledisloe this year
Fact: There will be a BIL tour in 2025, and a home WC in 2027

Beyond this, all is hope, despair and speculation. What happens during 2024 will, imo, be a massive factor in what happens in the medium to long term.

 

[Wallaby Ways]

Australian Rugby needs positivity at the moment.

 

[half]

When all else is lost, it is all a human can hang onto. The end result might surprise both of us, but you can guarantee it won't be as good as I hope nor as bad as you expect.

I think you are right.

If I said in Australia

First tier codes are AFL, Cricket, NRL

Second tier, Super Cars, Rugby, Football,

Third Tier, Basketball, Netball

Both third tier codes have had major issues, with basketball restructuring an growing nicely now,

Football currently has Newcastle & Perth owned by the governing body, looking for buyers, yet a new team in Auckland has been announced and if media reports are correct a new Canberra team as well will be announced soon.

Rugby needs new systems and structures pick wisely like Basketball we will slowly grow and growth on growth often creates many other aspects..

My sadness stems from the lost opportunities, with head in the sand decision making and refusal to accept advise from many including myself that the Tri Nations and Super Rugby was merely the circuit breaker to stop us being bled by league and AFL of our best. Two things that sadden me most, in the late 90's we should have set in motion a way to have a nation domestic competition up and running by the mid 2000's. Second why we let so many assets go to waste and spend money on hiring major stadiums and major training facilities..

Still, were we finish will be dependent on what RA do, let hope the gain wisdom. Basketball, Netball and Football have had similar issues they found how to climb off the floor as will we.

 

[Adam84]

Football is on the floor again, they’ve burned through almost all the $140million in PE they received, and scrapped the platform that was supposed to value add significantly to the game.

you keep saying this as though you were the only one with criticisms of the design of those competitions at inception, but where did you make these comments and who provided that feedback?

@half ? i asked the above of you,still curious for a response

 

[half]

Made them often and so did many others I was not in any way a lone voice. Maybe it was the people I associated with but the idea that a media company could design a rugby competition that would stand the test of time to us was beyond crazy.

You ask were, mostly in some committees, often on the side line with many senior rugby folk. Did I use social media back then, no was often on the move, spent lots of time in the US and Fiji work commitments.

I can still recall the laughter, often scorn, and outright ridicule by many people in key positions, Kerry Packer and WSC was always used as the example, crowds and ratings always pointed out.

One of my best mates played for Gordon in the Shute Shield for a few years, very smart business person, anyway he was the one who convinced me of the need to change. He gave up along with others on Super Rugby by hhhmmm around 2007/8/9 he and others drifted away.

Just on Football, you seem to wanta bring it up all the time as a total failure as if nothing they have done is right and you said on the floor again. That they burned thu 140 million. All thats news to me, they have two new teams in Auckland and Canberra starting next season, if APL are right they have buyers for Perth & Newcastle twas in the media release when they closed down their digital arm sacking half their staff after burning 30 million, twas all in the same article.

They have more players at grass roots that AFL, NRL & Rugby combined, their national teams are performing well and rating for their national teams are up. A-L crowds are up slightly year on year at the same time.

Do they have issues yes heaps, many self inflected, but its expected the next media deal for the national teams will increase a lot. Their women's competition has crowds up over 200%, and they are the only code that has a full season women's competition.

Adam I think the A-L is in trouble however the solutions to the A-l troubles are management decisions have been inept putting it kindly. BUT BUT BUT there solutions are no longer system / structure based Rugbies are structural.

 

[Wallaby Ways]

We need to see players out in schools more.
We need our own version of AusKick.

 

[Adam84]

Made them often and so did many others I was not in any way a lone voice. Maybe it was the people I associated with but the idea that a media company could design a rugby competition that would stand the test of time to us was beyond crazy.

You ask were, mostly in some committees, often on the side line with many senior rugby folk. Did I use social media back then, no was often on the move, spent lots of time in the US and Fiji work commitments.

I can still recall the laughter, often scorn, and outright ridicule by many people in key positions, Kerry Packer and WSC was always used as the example, crowds and ratings always pointed out.

.

Yeah ok so the comments weren’t made in the forum or feedback received, nor an environment that any of us were part of, was just interested why you keep bringing it up?

Just on Football, you seem to wanta bring it up all the time as a total failure as if nothing they have done is right and you said on the floor again. That they burned thu 140 million. All thats news to me, they have two new teams in Auckland and Canberra starting next season, if APL are right they have buyers for Perth & Newcastle twas in the media release when they closed down their digital arm sacking half their staff after burning 30 million, twas all in the same article.

Half previously you’ve said APL and PE that was been done in football was an exemplar for rugby in Australia to follow, and posted quite regularly about the A League, surprised you haven’t jumped on the topic of losses earlier. Theres definitely lessons earned about what not to do, and like English Rugby, I’m glad another sport PE deal has gone south before RA committed to demonstrate that’s it’s not the holy grail of growth.

 

[half]

got the jersey wrong should be a Woodies one.

 

[Wallaby Ways]

Ha!
Speaking of… How is their relocation going ?

 

[half]

Yeah ok so the comments weren’t made in the forum or feedback received, nor an environment that any of us were part of, was just interested why you keep bringing it up?


Half previously you’ve said APL and PE that was been done in football was an exemplar for rugby in Australia to follow, and posted quite regularly about the A League, surprised you haven’t jumped on the topic earlier. Theres definitely lessons earned about what not to do, and like English Rugby, I’m glad another sport PE deal has gone south to demonstrate that’s it’s not the holy grail of growth.

Yes and I stand by it, even more now.

they started with 8 teams, now they have 12 soon 14, they now have a full season of womens teams.

These teams provide players for there national teams, even if many transfer from the A-l to Europe to get selected, there crowds are up slightly on last year so to are there subscriptions [no idea how much subs are up]. They have two new teams coming in.

Those in charge made some huge management miscalculations, they started a digital network and spend 30 million on it and it failed badly, so they sacked everybody associated with it which was half their staff. They made other management stuff ups, quite a number so much so fans stopped going for a while in protest.

None of the mistakes Football management made were due to the system and structure they put in place.

Yet for all these mistakes people still wanta invest and buy teams in the A-L. The teams are not cheap 25 million buy in.

BTW, Nine / Fairfax & News / Fox are great places given the codes they own broadcast rights too, to read why the A-L is successful.

No one is denying the A-l is in deep trouble, equally the structures they have in place will allow them to reset.

As an aside, if you leave out the two new A-league teams they are averaging close to 9K, just over 8K with the new teams, and there crowds have steadily grown this year,

Even more than before, the structure they have in place is IMO the way to go, maybe I should instead of calling it Football make up a name, its like saying Football in any sense is a sin and needs to be cleansed from the site

For all the failures of the A-L, as you point out, since it started, player numbers have grown hugely across all ages and genders, a steady flow of players for the international sides, entry into the Asian Football Confederation [worth millions in sponsorship alone] . There national sides have gone from after thoughts once every four years and nude calendars to arguably with cricket the most popular teams in the country.

An example, prior the the A-l, player numbers on the Central Coast were around 5K, today they are well over 16k, many of the locals that play for the Mariners would have gone to league or union.

The A-L management, has made many mistakes that digital network was a wooper of a mistake. That the A-L is in serious trouble is beyond doubt, but the 50 million coming in from two new teams, and maybe another 20 million with the sale of Perth & Newcastle will help a little.

Back to me saying its the way to go, IMO its even clearer. Arguing their structure is wrong, well its akin to arguing that Super Rugby is the way forward

 

[young gun]

Ha!
Speaking of… How is their relocation going ?

dont hold your breath.

 

[Wallaby Ways]

dont hold your breath.

Problems?

 

[Adam84]

Yes and I stand by it, even more now.

they started with 8 teams, now they have 12 soon 14, they now have a full season of womens teams.

These teams provide players for there national teams, even if many transfer from the A-l to Europe to get selected, there crowds are up slightly on last year so to are there subscriptions [no idea how much subs are up]. They have two new teams coming in.

Those in charge made some huge management miscalculations, they started a digital network and spend 30 million on it and it failed badly, so they sacked everybody associated with it which was half their staff. They made other management stuff ups, quite a number so much so fans stopped going for a while in protest.

None of the mistakes Football management made were due to the system and structure they put in place.

Yet for all these mistakes people still wanta invest and buy teams in the A-L. The teams are not cheap 25 million buy in.

BTW, Nine / Fairfax & News / Fox are great places given the codes they own broadcast rights too, to read why the A-L is successful.

No one is denying the A-l is in deep trouble, equally the structures they have in place will allow them to reset.

As an aside, if you leave out the two new A-league teams they are averaging close to 9K, just over 8K with the new teams, and there crowds have steadily grown this year,

Even more than before, the structure they have in place is IMO the way to go, maybe I should instead of calling it Football make up a name, its like saying Football in any sense is a sin and needs to be cleansed from the site

For all the failures of the A-L, as you point out, since it started, player numbers have grown hugely across all ages and genders, a steady flow of players for the international sides, entry into the Asian Football Confederation [worth millions in sponsorship alone] . There national sides have gone from after thoughts once every four years and nude calendars to arguably with cricket the most popular teams in the country.

An example, prior the the A-l, player numbers on the Central Coast were around 5K, today they are well over 16k, many of the locals that play for the Mariners would have gone to league or union.

The A-L management, has made many mistakes that digital network was a wooper of a mistake. That the A-L is in serious trouble is beyond doubt, but the 50 million coming in from two new teams, and maybe another 20 million with the sale of Perth & Newcastle will help a little.

Back to me saying its the way to go, IMO its even clearer. Arguing their structure is wrong, well its akin to arguing that Super Rugby is the way forward

So you’re saying APL and their PE agreement was a positive one that rugby should seek to replicate? Despite burning through almost $140million in reserves in 3 years, a broadcast agreement that’s come in much lower the budgeted because they’re failing to hit KPIs, shuttering a $40million digital platform that was suppose to underpin growth, broadcast production costs chewing up 40% of broadcast revenue and the league giving up 33% of all future earnings? Hmmmmm

definitely lessons learned from this, not in the way you think though.

 

[stillmissit]

So you’re saying APL and their PE agreement was a positive one that rugby should seek to replicate? Despite burning through almost $140million in reserves in 3 years, a broadcast agreement that’s come in much lower the budgeted because they’re failing to hit KPIs, shuttering a $40million digital platform that was suppose to underpin growth, broadcast production costs chewing up 40% of broadcast revenue and the league giving up 33% of all future earnings? Hmmmmm

definitely lessons learned from this, not in the way you think though.

Did Hamish have this gig before RA? Seems like his M.O.

 

[Adam84]

.lThat the A-L is in serious trouble is beyond doubt, but the 50 million coming in from two new teams, and maybe another 20 million with the sale of Perth & Newcastle will help a little.

What you’re describing is essentially a Ponzi scheme, relying on cash from new investors to provide dividends and distributions to existing investors; is not a sustainable business model

It should also be noted that silver lakes has the option to sell back their private equity stake back to the APL for the same price they paid from circa 2029 .

 

[Dan54]

No I was thinking more of letting them fold and then taking back the license. Whether that means the RA Rebels re-emerge or they just disappear is what I'm not sure of.

I have read where some people have sugested that RA takes over the Rebels etc, and so the debt stays with current club?
I personally hope that is not even considered, don't forget if there is a $9 mill debt, it should be looked at how it can be repaid, not avoided, will not help rugby's name or reputation in least. And as someone who has seen arseholes doing these tricks and effects it has on some companies/peoples businesses, I would be disgusted with anyone trying same shit!

 

[Adam84]

I have read where some people have sugested that RA takes over the Rebels etc, and so the debt stays with current club?
I personally hope that is not even considered, don't forget if there is a $9 mill debt, it should be looked at how it can be repaid, not avoided, will not help rugby's name or reputation in least. And as someone who has seen arseholes doing these tricks and effects it has on some companies/peoples businesses, I would be disgusted with anyone trying same shit!

What?