Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
And it's a question that many of us have asked; "Why do players who have been in ARU programmes since they were 15 or 16 have such poor basic skills?"
Blues v Tahs, round 11 2014
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Muttonbird
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Don't worry, he won't be picked.
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
Because of who they pick at 16.
Then it's all gym and breakdown work.
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Muttonbird
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Anyway, the real story of this match was not the inability of the Waratahs to finish a point, nor Michael Cheika's aggro, but the return of Jerome Kaino.
No matter how good Potgieter was, Kaino was the man of old. I know the man an he is a family man. He has got to where he is being a family man. Barring injury Jerome Kaino will be better in the RWC2015 than he was in 2011.
No matter how good Potgieter was, Kaino was the man of old. I know the man an he is a family man. He has got to where he is being a family man. Barring injury Jerome Kaino will be better in the RWC2015 than he was in 2011.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
And my theory on why the Aussie derbies are so poor is that they are all just carbon copies who perform rote drills ad nauseum and thus cancel each other out when they play.
EDIT: and it seems to me that once a boy gets in to these programmes, it's almost impossible to get out.
Ever heard Mark or Glen Ella speak?
The "Rote Drills" that they perfected was barefoot footy on rock hard grounds at La Perouse with all the local kids involved. No Video analysis, no coaching, no drills, no adults. Just playing the game over and over and over, as long as it was light enough to see.
PS. Boys do get dropped from "these programmes". Those that do are not all that keen to publicise it. Those running "these programmes" are rather secretive about who is in them. There was a time when lists were available. Now you need to ask some one you suspect is in "the programme".
PPS. We tend to produce some rote coaches, standard and predictable game plans. That is sucking some of the excitement out of local derbies more than the rote execution of breakdown work by the "chosen few". We need a little more individuality and risk taking from within our coaching stocks.
The "Rote Drills" that they perfected was barefoot footy on rock hard grounds at La Perouse with all the local kids involved. No Video analysis, no coaching, no drills, no adults. Just playing the game over and over and over, as long as it was light enough to see.
PS. Boys do get dropped from "these programmes". Those that do are not all that keen to publicise it. Those running "these programmes" are rather secretive about who is in them. There was a time when lists were available. Now you need to ask some one you suspect is in "the programme".
PPS. We tend to produce some rote coaches, standard and predictable game plans. That is sucking some of the excitement out of local derbies more than the rote execution of breakdown work by the "chosen few". We need a little more individuality and risk taking from within our coaching stocks.
Pfitzy
George Gregan (70)
This is why we are getting something above club rugby - because Age systems protect the whiz kids from having their flaws exposed. Once you're in, that's it: money invested, time to work on your bench press and beep test.
If you're interested in a good club we hear Sydney Uni has a few spots open and you have access to the best facilities that way and will play on the best team. That way you don't need to worry about dealing with distractions like adversity or competition.
Just learn how to win, and keep that beep test training going until the Waratahs selectors call.
If you're interested in a good club we hear Sydney Uni has a few spots open and you have access to the best facilities that way and will play on the best team. That way you don't need to worry about dealing with distractions like adversity or competition.
Just learn how to win, and keep that beep test training going until the Waratahs selectors call.
Dave Beat
Paul McLean (56)
No
no no no he shouldn't even be on the bench IMO. I'd like a game changer on the bench. I think tummy carter makes a better 12 than KB (Kurtley Beale), Horne played well there last year, Horne is not a winger playing home wide us stupid.
no no no he shouldn't even be on the bench IMO. I'd like a game changer on the bench. I think tummy carter makes a better 12 than KB (Kurtley Beale), Horne played well there last year, Horne is not a winger playing home wide us stupid.
Dave Beat
Paul McLean (56)
But how many players have gone through the Uni program onto gold as a consistent first choice starter. Note izzy didn't go through the program.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Every study on kids sport that I have read stresses the importance of at least one of:
1. Unstructured play - i.e. kids down the park playing without coaches, manager or parents anywhere near them
2. Playing more than one sport during childhood so that the maximum number of skills and co-ordination are developed
Everything we do is the exact opposite, so should we be surprised at the outcome?
Our coaches all now follow a similar path to the elite level. None of them would sully their hands coaching a 3rd or 4th grade club side. Rod McQueen and Bob Dwyer both did and the results speak for themselves. When you're coaching teams like that you have to think on your feet and constantly adjust to completely unforeseen events and you've pretty much got to do it all yourself.
Nowadays the path is to be part of the ARU elite programme or at a GPS school. I don't believe it's a good preparation for coaches or players to follow this pathway they're just not exposed to adversity or distractions as Pfitzy points out.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
I doubt this will be popular: anyone else see Kellaway and Horwitz sitting in the Tahs "dugout" against the Bulls?
Once upon a time blokes like that would have had to sit in the "outer" as paying members of the public dreaming of the day they got the call to go and play for the Tahs.
Its nothing against those 2 blokes but where is the struggle and sacrifice and getting your nose busted by Steve Temple (RIP)?
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Or trying to motivate yourself or the team on a cold July day at Forshaw or out at Granville playing against a wily old 1st grader who doesn't care what school you went to or what ARU programme that you're in?
Slightly unfair - I think.
The question could be asked how many players have gone through any club development programme onto gold as a consistent first choice starter?
If a kid is any good, they will end up as a consistent first choice starter in Green and Gold REGARDLESS of the club experience/development/training programme, or "Koala Club" selection they have been exposed to.
One of the best out of St Pius and Manly would still be a Wob if he had attended Rooty Hill High and registered with the Emu's for Colts/Grade. How much influence has the MMM had on him and how much was his own skills and abilities?
Would TPN be a better player if he had attended an AAGPS School followed by apprenticeship at a "name" club like Randwick, Uni or Norths?
Is Treweek a better player now he is at Manly and no longer a Pirate?
Where did Northam gain his pace? Similar for Lachie Turner - Was it Newington, or Eastwood or just an inate skill the boy had?
To answer the initial question, not many from Uni have gone on to Green and Gold, but plenty have gone on to Super Rugby. Many of theirs have been with the club since school.
How many from Easts, Wicks, Hobbits, Norths or Marlins development programmes have gone on to be consistent first choice starters? Pretty sure the answer would be the same.
Uni had developed a model of picking them young and keeping them. Wicks and Norths seem to have copied this model (at least the "picking them young" aspect) but have not had time for this to flow through to Grade. Time will tell, although the good folk at the Wicks seem to be rather mercenary with recruits that don't shape up and deliver the goods.
Less and less of the rock stars are spending any time at Grade on a freezing winter afternoon playing footy against the wily folk. With NRC there will be less and less chances of the up and comers playing at the likes of Woollahra Oval, Merrylands RSL Park and Nepean Rugby Park against the toilers of clubland.
The whole rugby CV thing spills over into the Media with the game callers frequently reminding the watchers that <insert player name> is a graduate of the famous <insert school name> rugby programme. Less and less talk about kids like Tola Latu graduating from South Sydney High (I think) and driving a forkift at Flemmo Markets, or <player name> completing their <insert trade> apprenticeship. Professionalism in the game has made many of these sorts of stories redundant.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Don't discount the significance of the fact that his father was a quality back rower.
That influence, at breakfast and dinner etc etc is not to be underestimated.
I guess its what they try and replicate in the programmes: constant almost inadvertent discussion of the game. Its hard to do though because sometimes its the incidental stuff that matters the most.
And by young you mean after they've played for CAS/GPS/NSW schools/Oz schools
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Well, he started off playing minis for Manly Roos, then onto MJRU rep teams well before he lobbed at Pius - and he kept playing for the Roos and Manly during his time at Pius.
I'd argue that Manly had far more to do with his development than either Pius or the ISA. In his time at Pius they barely won a game in A competitions or 1st XV.
He obviously had natural talent and a connection to the game, but I'd suggest that if he went to Rooty Hill HS, he'd probably be playing league now. Plenty of boys out that way whose parents have a rugby connection, but the kid plays league with his mates. Israel Folau for example.
It's probably not the best example to pick if your point is that clubs don't develop talent. In fact he'd be the gold standard to make the opposite point
.
Yep. For some there is no choice. Many kids are "locked up" in the School system from U15 onwards and unavailable to clubs (village or District) to "develop" until they finish Year 12.
You only need to see the clipboards at Schools and NSW JRU Champs to witness the "filtering" that Uni (and many others) undertake to determine which of the anointed ones they will invite to register with them for Colts.
With no Under 16 National champs, there is less incentive for the "Schools" kids to moonlight in SJRU village comp to try for a second tilt at selection for Nationals. They will theoretically get their chance in the sun via the ARU JGC programme.
Dave Beat
Paul McLean (56)
HJ - not sure what point your trying to make?
Definitely no stab at Uni. Whilst there is a huge rivalry there and most clubs cheer for any team they are playing against I think we all need appreciate what they have done for lifting the game and the 3rt tier.
I’ve said this before in around about sort of way – you don’t need to go to Uni to play for the Wallabies. Instead I’ve pointed out – how many Wallabies are currently with the Wallabies, possibly the wrong way to point it out.
I get more enjoyment with the grass roots, whether that be the Shute Shield, or seeing kid rugby and growing, developing, thus and ensuring rugby is thriving and creating greater numbers and lifting more talent.
ShtinaTina
Alex Ross (28)
Fight club?
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