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Climate Change etc

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Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
If we keep going the way we are going and if climate change is as a result of human action or even exacerbated by human activity, we might soon have a year round cricket season. It makes KRudd's emissions targets seem pretty pathetic. Particularly as individual reductions arent used to contribute to lower emissions but just to allow industry to fill the gap.

Are there any Scarf scientists?

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/poles-apart-but-warming-greater-than-thought-20090226-8j9g.html

Poles apart but warming greater than thought
Icebergs float in a bay off Ammassalik Island, Greenland.
Photo: AP/John McConnico
AdvertisementEmail Print Normal font Large font Marian Wilkinson Environment Editor

February 27, 2009

Advertisement
A TWO-YEAR research effort by the world's leading scientists has uncovered evidence of global warming's widespread effect.

Snow and ice continue to decline in the Arctic and parts of Antarctica, affecting sea-level rise and weather patterns, as well as human, animal and plant life.

The findings of International Polar Year, a global research project involving 60 nations, were released yesterday. They confirmed that warming in Antarctica was greater than previously understood and the rate of ice loss from Greenland was increasing.

Dr Ian Allison, of the Australian Antarctic Division, who co-chaired the project told the Herald the effect of global warming in Greenland was clear.

"In Greenland the rate of ice loss is getting greater over the last 10 years and the surface [ice] melt is definitely related to the warming," Dr Allison said.

The project's scientists summed up their findings, saying: "It now appears certain that both the Greenland and the Antarctic ice sheets are losing mass and thus raising sea level, and that the rate of ice loss from Greenland is growing."

They also warned "the potential for these ice sheets to undergo further rapid ice discharge remains the largest unknown in projections of the rate of sea-level rise by the [United Nations] Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change".

Projections for the NSW coast released by the State Government suggest sea levels are expected to rise up to 40 centimetres by 2050 and 90 centimetres by 2100. One centimetre of sea-level rise can have erosion effects of up to one metre in low-lying areas.

The popular belief that Antarctica may be resistant to global warming has been undercut by International Polar Year's research. Data from satellites and weather stations confirmed that for the past 50 years it has been warming at the same rate as the rest of the planet.

Until recently it was only the fragile Antarctic Peninsula that juts up from West Antarctica, which was considered vulnerable to global warming. The peninsula is warming more rapidly than much of the rest of the world with temperatures rising 2.5 degrees in the past 50 years and ice loss increasing 140 per cent in the past decade.

The recent research confirms the Arctic sea ice shrank last year to its second-lowest extent since satellite monitoring began in 1979. The previous low was the summer of 2007. Some scientists are predicting there will be an ice-free Arctic in summer by 2012.

Since the findings by the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change in 2007, it has been widely accepted that the planet's warming is almost certainly due to greenhouse gases being released from the burning of fossil fuels, land clearing and cement manufacturing.

The new research warns greenhouse emissions could rapidly increase from the Arctic warming. The Arctic contains large amounts of greenhouse gas that has been locked in permafrost and below the Arctic Ocean.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Woodside is an enigma. It is interesting that while sending its right hand to seek concessions to the ETS, its left hand is busy adapting for climate change. http://www.smh.com.au/environment/c...20090327-9e6z.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

March 28, 2009

Those accusing the Government of scaremongering on climate change show signs of being a tad frightened themselves, writes Marian Wilkinson.

An earnest young scientist this week stood at the podium of the nation's most important climate change conference, flicking through a presentation of rising temperatures off Australia's north-west. She then moved on to global predictions out to 2060 showing the temperature rising steadily and dangerously.

The scientist was no academic, CSIRO boffin or environmentalist. Elena Mavrofridis is a chemical engineer with Woodside Energy, the company that recently went toe-to-toe with the Climate Change Minister, Penny Wong, in a political battle to water down the Federal Government's Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme.

While Woodside's American boss, Don Voelte, has been at loggerheads with the Rudd Government over how to cut Australia's greenhouse gas pollution, his engineers have been working closely with scientists from the CSIRO and elsewhere to make sure Woodside can protect its own multibillion-dollar operations from climate change impacts.

The company initiated its own climate change study to assess how warming temperatures, rising sea levels, storm surges and a possible increase in tropical storms could hit the bottom line of the super-profitable North West Shelf gas project.

Mavrofridis told the packed auditorium that rising temperatures would probably affect Woodside operations, because the company uses, in effect, huge refrigerators to liquefy North West Shelf gas before export.

"An ambient temperature increase directly affects the efficiency of that refrigeration process," Mavrofridis said. "So predictions like these really help us to choose and design our facilities."

As hundreds of scientists, policy makers and business executives came together at the Greenhouse 2009 conference in Perth this week, one jarring theme overwhelmed the program - the disconnect between the tortuous climate change debate in Canberra and the reality for business, farmers and public servants trying to plan for likely impact. And many of Australia's scientists, caught in the middle of this disconnect, find it deeply troubling.

In January, the National Party Senate leader Barnaby Joyce accused "environmental goose-steppers" of denying climate change sceptics a proper hearing. He likened climate scientists to "doomsayers" who wrongly predicted a Y2K crisis.

But as Joyce comforts sceptics, the peanut industry, once synonymous with the National Party in his home state of Queensland, is acting on scientific warnings about climate change. The Peanut Company of Australia is buying new farm properties in the Northern Territory to hedge against south-east Queensland's falling rainfall.

Andrew Ash, the CSIRO's senior scientific adviser on adapting the nation to climate change, says the peanut industry is acting now to protect its interests, but many other industries ignore the urgency. "In some areas much bigger changes will be needed," he told the Herald. "That's where things get a lot more difficult - working out what form those changes might take and when they might be required."

Ash came to Perth fresh from Copenhagen, where a global scientific congress heard climate change impacts were tracking at the worse-case scenarios predicted by the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change just two years ago.

These include rising temperatures and rising sea levels. With new evidence that the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets, and many of the world's glaciers, are melting faster than predicted, projections for sea-level rise have doubled.

Ash said the fact that climate change's main indicators were tracking at the top level of projections mirrored global greenhouse gas emissions, which also were tracking at the top end of the UN panel's projections.

His colleague, Mark Howden, told the Copenhagen and Perth conferences that Australia's food security was threatened. Australia is a big contributor to world food security because it exports about 80 per cent of its wheat. But CSIRO projections show the main wheat-growing areas in southern NSW, Victoria, South Australia and Western Australia face rising temperatures and big declines in rain. If climate change keeps tracking at the worse-case scenarios, "Australia could become a net importer of wheat by 2070", Howden said.

While Joyce plays down the urgency of climate change, many National Party supporters are likely to be the most damaged. The new head of the CSIRO, Megan Clark, a former vice-president for technology with BHP Billiton, underscored the threat. "Our climate modellers have recently discovered that Australia could be hit even harder by drought," Clark told the Perth conference. Spring rain in the nation's food bowl - the southern Murray Darling Basin - could fall by 30 per cent.

The latest "crucial" science presented at Copenhagen illustrated Earth's abilities "to balance or counteract our actions and maintain a stable climate are weakening", Clark warned.

She cited rising sea levels as one of the more urgent threats. "This means, without intervention, a sea-level rise of one metre or more will be seen by the generation born today. Coupled with an increase in severe cyclones, and flooding, we could see coastal erosion, damage to infrastructure and extreme hardship for the delta regions of the world."

The growing gulf between scientific advice and Australia's political debate frustrates not only scientists but the head of the Government's Climate Change Review, Ross Garnaut, who told the Perth audience the Canberra debate was now dominated by the ignorant and the myopic.

But as Opposition and Labor MPs step up warnings against tough climate medicine in times of economic crisis, nervous businesses and public servants are demanding help on to how to plan for climate change.

Three big electricity distributors in Victoria and South Australia have hired the the engineering consultants Maunsell Aecom to advise them on protecting power lines and poles. In Perth, Donna Lorenz of Maunsell told how this summer's unprecedented high temperatures and subsequent power failures ratcheted up energy company concerns.

Just last year, Victoria's most highly polluting brown coal generators slammed Wong, Kevin Rudd, the federal Energy Minister, Martin Ferguson, and the Victorian Premier, John Brumby, demanding protection for the costs of cutting greenhouse gas emissions under the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme.

The British-born head of Victoria's TRUenergy Richard McIndoe warned Wong and her Labor colleagues that, if generators were denied special consideration, lights could go off and innovative research could be abandoned.

In the highest temperatures on record this summer, lights went off anyway as generators failed to meet demand. Left wearing customers' wrath, however, were electricity retailers, not the big-polluting generators who keep insisting on dispensation to keep emitting greenhouse gases.

Power distributors are just some of the extending list of essential services lining up for advice on adapting to climate change. Michael Nolan, of Maunsell Aecom, advises the NSW Roads and Traffic Authority on threats to coastal roads from rising sea levels and storm surges.

Nolan says the combination could threaten more than 200,000 NSW coastal properties, along with ports, bridges and sewerage works.

This week, the Rudd Government finally issued tenders calling for advice on how to protect the national infrastructure from the impacts of climate change. Planning for adaption to climate change, however difficult, is proving easier for the Government than cutting greenhouse emissions.
 
S

steiner

Guest
I'm no scientist but I've looked at the matter somewhat. I'm a huge skeptic. There are big doubts over whether global warming is happening at all and if it is, whether man's activities can have any notable influence on it. I've got an uncle with a Ph.D. in geology who believes it is all nonsense as well. That is a pretty popular opinion among scientists as far as I can gather.

In the U.S. a while ago, 31 000 scientists, 9,000 of them Ph.D's signed an online petition stating their skepticism and encouraging the U.S Govt. to reject the Kyoto protocols. Not all of them climatologists of course but still a lot of scientifically trained skeptics out there. The opinion which is often aired that there is consensus among the scientific fraternity and climatologists that global warming is happening and/or strongly affected by human activity appears to be absolutely false!

An interesting read is Viscount Monckton's rebuttal of the numerous fallacies in the fictional work presented by Al Gore misnomered "An Inconvenient Truth" and another rebuttal by Monckton of a pro-global-warming speech given by senator John McCain which you can find on the net. I don't think Monckton's actually a scientist but he's an intelligent man whose writings on the subject are far heavier in facts and references to journal articles than you'll find in most pro global-warming articles such as those shown above which are often full of indefinite, non-committal statements.

The mass media outlets, in general, appear to be heavily biassed towards the pro global-warming side, and you need to access other media to get a balanced view. Google searches, Youtube, scientific journals etc.
In the 1970s, global cooling was actually the big concern which did not eventuate and not too long ago depletion of the ozone layer, which now appears to have fallen somewhat out of vogue.

What is your opinion Cutter? A believer, a skeptic, or just an enquirer?
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Your question deserves a considered response so...

I am an enquirer with a leaning towards accepting that global warming is happening. I have seen anecdotal evidence of climate change. My brother is a river ecologist and systems expert. According to my brother (who accepts that global warming is being contributed to by humans) our climate is a stable system. Changes to that system, such as increased carbon dioxide, will make it unstable. It will then adjust to find another level of stability. The new stable system is likely to result in a warmer globe with changed weather patterns and more extreme weather events.

As I understand all the evidence, the long term trend is still of global warming. Some measurements show that the last few years are cooler than previous years, but the trend is upwards. Think a couple of days of rises on the ASX in December when the longer term trend has been down. The first article in this thread shows that the icecaps are melting and melting faster than anticipated.

Anecdotally, my family has lived in the south west slopes of nsw for 130 years. We have rainfall charts going back over 100 years and the sustained dry spell that we are experiencing at the moment is similar, but more severe, than the 1930s and 1940s. Friends who live in north western NSW say that they have never seen it better there. I live in the UK. Every spring there are stories in the local media about flowers being out earlier than ever before and about birds nesting earlier. There are also stories in the national media about bears not hibernating in the Pyrenees. The last two or three summers have been cooler and wetter. Flooding in the UK that is flooding buildings which are hundreds of years old. So, whether as a result of global warming or not, weather patterns are changing.

Have you done any research on the petition you are talking about? Although not always a reliable source, wikipedia actually covers it pretty well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Petition. It is littered with errors, duplicates, signatures from corporations, Spice Girls signatures, Perry Mason has signed... that petition is not credible.

Viscount Monckton is not a scientist. He is a journalist and former politician. He is interested in selling his books.

Monckton was involved in a court case in the UK where a school governor challenged whether "An Inconvenient Truth" should be shown in UK schools. The ?60,000 was funded by the oil and mining industries http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/oct/14/schools.film. I've read the judgment and the court found that there were 9 factual inaccuracies but that the film was "...substantially founded upon scientific research and fact." You should read the judgment http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/marku...8.html&query=title+(+dimmock+)&method=boolean.

Without any disrespect to your uncle, geology = mining. Traditionally the mining industry has been on the sceptics team. I've spoken to friends in the mining industry who are generally very reasonable and rational who wont process reason when discussing anything which could be anti-mining. Even when there are published facts about water sources being contaminated etc they deny it.

The reason the ozone layer is no longer threatened is because we arent using cfcs any more. That is, we took steps to fix that little problem and it worked.

To be honest, everyone has a leaning on this issue. If I want to find writings and theories to support either side I could do so without too much trouble and if you read things you already agree with, you are unlikely to change your mind. However, I have tried to investigate both sides and I cant be sure either way because I will always be relying on facts and assumptions provided by others. However I think we have to accept that the IPCC, which is made up of leading climate specialists, and which has concluded that climate change is contributed to by human activity, isnt a corrupt, deceitful conspiracy of the worlds best scientists. They tell us we need to reduce/maintain carbon at 450 ppm to prevent catastrophic change.

NASA in the US, the Met Office in the UK, the CSIRO and the Bureau of Meteorology in Australia all accept that global warming is contributed to by human activity. Are all of these government organisations populated with liars and frauds? I cant believe that they are. That being the case, I'm inclined to think we need to do something to ensure that we make changes to, if possible, limit our carbon emissions and get them to stabilise rather than taking the chance the scientists are wrong and doing nothing. The consequences of doing nothing are more serious than changing our spending to invest in renewable energy and technology instead of fossil fuel subsidies for a few years.

It may mean we have to change our lifestyles slightly, but I dont really have a problem with that. I'm not a person who goes on shopping trips or has (or needs) a big 4WD to drive to the shops. I'd rather eat local produce than something flown in from the other side of the world. I'd rather my kids catch a bus or walk or cycle to school than drive them. I'm happy to spend a bit of cash to make sure my home is insulated and I use green energy. Provided the government provides the infrastructure and incentives to make things happen, its not going to be that big a deal for the rest of us.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
I believe it doesn't matter what your stance on climate change is: the scarier fact is the rapidly dwindling natural energy resources we have left to power our generally outrageous lifestyles. If me being green helps burn less coal, oil, or gas, then I'm all for it because it means my kids might have enough to get them to the next energy revolution.
 
M

Mainlander

Guest
Don't worry about it, global warming, the answer is very simple.

The earth will fix it itself, has before, will do it again.

When the Ice caps melt in the Northern hemisphere the fresh water will poor into the sea making a top layer of fresh water that will stop the gulf stream from bringing the warm water to the surface in the northern Atlantic (and the reason Europe has a warmer climate than other places that far north) This will throw the world into an Ice age and presto.... the earth warming up problem is solved.

For those interested this is what the believe caused the last ice age, except in that case it was the/A great lake in Canada loosing it's ice sheet containment walls that let the fresh water into the Atlantic.

The golf stream is already showing signs of slowing so a complete stop may not be far off.
 
M

Mainlander

Guest
Nope.....

Saw a couple of docos on it a couple of years ago, one on the previous Ice age the other on the Gulf Stream and how it's currently trucking. (they also mentioned the ice age and the last time it stopped)

Always wondered why everyone is gashing teeth about the world warming up and that it cooling down is going to devastate us a hell of a lot more.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Mainlander said:
Don't worry about it, global warming, the answer is very simple.

The earth will fix it itself, has before, will do it again.

When the Ice caps melt in the Northern hemisphere the fresh water will poor into the sea making a top layer of fresh water that will stop the gulf stream from bringing the warm water to the surface in the northern Atlantic (and the reason Europe has a warmer climate than other places that far north) This will throw the world into an Ice age and presto.... the earth warming up problem is solved.

For those interested this is what the believe caused the last ice age, except in that case it was the/A great lake in Canada loosing it's ice sheet containment walls that let the fresh water into the Atlantic.

The golf stream is already showing signs of slowing so a complete stop may not be far off.

Interesting point about the earth fixing itself. You are right, it will find a new level of equilibrium. The question is whether that new level of equilibrium will be an environment in which humans can survive and, if they can, at what standard of living.

All other things being equal, the gulf stream stopping/slowing isnt going to change the net temperature of the planet. If I pour warm water on my frozen car windscreen, the ice melts and my warm water gets colder but the net temperature is the same. One of the effects of global warming may be a permafrost in Europe but the current modelling suggests a hotter planet and more extreme weather events. The modelling builds in feedback loops (where one thing causes an altered response in something else). I imagine the feedback loops have the potential to work both ways (making it colder or hotter) but the scientists predict it will be hotter.

As far as I can work out, the thing that makes this climate change different to previous climate change (and which is the primary concern for scientists) is that the temperature changes are happening faster than before.
 
M

Mainlander

Guest
Cutter said:
[As far as I can work out, the thing that makes this climate change different to previous climate change (and which is the primary concern for scientists) is that the temperature changes are happening faster than before.

Wrong.

Ice ages happen very quickly, Super volcanos, meteorite collisions, fresh water flooding the northern Atlantic.

Anything that stops the sun penetrating the atmosphere or a continuos winter in the NH.

But if it warming up concerns you then don't buy a house anywhere near the coast.

Personally I'm still trying to sort out how the switching of the Poles is going to effect everything, it is overdue.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Mainlander said:
Cutter said:
[As far as I can work out, the thing that makes this climate change different to previous climate change (and which is the primary concern for scientists) is that the temperature changes are happening faster than before.

Wrong.

Ice ages happen very quickly, Super volcanos, meteorite collisions, fresh water flooding the northern Atlantic.

Anything that stops the sun penetrating the atmosphere or a continuos winter in the NH.

But if it warming up concerns you then don't buy a house anywhere near the coast.

Personally I'm still trying to sort out how the switching of the Poles is going to effect everything, it is overdue.

Yes, but there hasnt been a massive event like a super volcanoe eruption or a meteor collision. Something is causing this change (as something always causes a system in equilibrium to change). What is it?

The fresh water flooding you mention was a consequence (glaciers melting) of a broader warming and whilst it did lead to a short cooling period, it didnt interupt the longer term warming trend.

So, notwithstanding the absence of a catastrophic one off event, the climate is changing faster than previously which is why its a concern.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/g...-antarctic-dam-breaks-away-20090406-9uwm.html

Fears for future after Antarctic dam breaks away

Andrew Darby

April 7, 2009

AN ICE wall damming the endangered Wilkins ice shelf against the Antarctic Peninsula has shattered, just as scientific alarms ring out about the region's rapid warming.

The 40 kilometre-long bridge held for more than a year while ice behind it broke up, but European Space Agency images show it finally failed on Sunday night, and Australian glaciologist, Neal Young, said yesterday.

"Now it looks like a laminated windscreen hit by a stone," said Dr Young, of the Antarctic Climate and Ecosystems Co-operative Research Centre in Hobart.

The loss opens the way for thousands of square kilometres of ice behind it to float away.

"All that mess will eventually be flushed out," Dr Young said. "If that clears, I would anticipate more fracturing around the Wilkins."

An American scientist, Ted Scambos, has calculated about half of the 13,680 square kilometres comprising the Wilkins shelf is in danger of disappearing.

It is the latest of seven great ice shelves afloat along the peninsula to collapse, and the furthest south. The warming is heading toward the globally important West Antarctic ice sheet.

The peninsula has experienced the world's greatest rise in air temperature in the past 50 years - 2.5 degrees. Scientists have seen waterfalls plunging from the top of the shelves as frightening evidence of climate change at work.

But Dr Scambos, of the National Snow and Ice Data Center in Colorado, said the Wilkins losses were the first to be clearly attributable to a slightly warming ocean, melting the shelf from below.

Just as a melting ice block does not raise the level of a glass of water, sea level is not affected by the break-up of the ice shelf. Of greater concern is the land-bound ice held behind these shelves, whose flow to the sea will speed up.

Substantial coastal change is now happening in all parts of the Antarctic Peninsula, according to a new study by the US Geological Survey and British Antarctic Survey. It mapped 174 ice coastlines, and counted 142 in retreat.

"The changes in the map area are widely regarded as among the most profound, unambiguous examples of the effects of global warming on Earth," the study quoted Dr Scambos as concluding.

It found for the first time that the 2000-square-kilometre Wordie ice shelf had disappeared, and an area of the Larsen B shelf more than three times the size of the Australian Capital Territory had vanished since 1986.

In another study prepared for this week's Antarctic Treaty meeting in the United States, polar scientists have warned that the Amundsen Sea sector of the West sheet, which holds one third of its ice, is the most rapidly changing region of the entire frozen continent.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/c...llyanna-world-says-senator-20090415-a7ju.html

Climate scientists living in Pollyanna world, says senator

Marian Wilkinson Environment Editor

April 16, 2009

THE National Party senator Ron Boswell repeatedly clashed with some of Australia's leading climate scientists yesterday, accusing them of living in "a Pollyanna world" and putting jobs in jeopardy by calling for deep cuts to the country's greenhouse gas emissions.

"Jobs are on the line," Senator Boswell said. "You've got to be practical".

But Professor David Karoly, who worked with the UN's peak scientific body on climate change, replied that dangerous climate change in Australia would have serious long-term effects, including the loss of life from increased heatwaves and bushfires.

Mike Raupach, of the CSIRO, told Senator Boswell consequences of not cutting greenhouse emissions globally would mean a severe decline in rainfall and water in the Murray-Darling Basin, the collapse of the Great Barrier Reef and coastal communities succumbing to rising sea levels. Senator Boswell expressed surprise when Dr Raupach told him that sea-level rise was already occurring.

The scientists were arguing for deep cuts to emissions during the opening day of the Senate inquiry into the Government's climate change policy. They were often at odds with the Rudd Government's policy as well as Senator Boswell during hearings, with the former senior CSIRO scientist Graeme Pearman arguing Australia should cut emissions by 30 per cent on 1990 levels by 2020.

Dr Raupach, along with two CSIRO colleagues, also made a submission to the inquiry saying the Government's targets were "much weaker" than those required from developed countries to give even a limited degree of protection from climate change. The serving CSIRO scientists stressed they were making their statements as individuals, not representing CSIRO.

The Climate Change Minister, Penny Wong, yesterday defended the Government from the scientific criticism over the targets. The criticism was echoed by a senior Chinese delegate attending a joint Australia-China climate conference at the Australian National University in Canberra.

Professor Jiahua Pan told the conference that Australia's 2020 target to cut emissions between 5 per cent and 15 per cent before 2000 levels was "insufficient". The UN climate negotiations is debating emission cuts for developed countries between 25 per cent and 40 per cent.

Senator Wong said the Government's strategy recognised the science on climate change and the need for urgent action. "We are putting forward a scheme that will have targets which will see a very substantial reduction into the future in Australia's greenhouse gas emissions".

Professor Stewart Franks, from the University of Newcastle, told the hearings that the UN's scientific evidence on human caused climate change was "all rubbish".
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
formeropenside said:
Oh God, oh God, we're all going to die.

Yes, and in the meantime we will all have to pay higher taxes and probably higher prices for the carbon hungry stuff.

http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20090420-US-EPAs-greenhouse-gas-gamble.html

The US EPA's 'toxic' greenhouse gas gamble

Monday, 20 April 2009

Glenn Dyer writes:
In a move that could have dramatic implications worldwide, the powerful US Environmental Protection Agency is proposing to regulate the six main greenhouse gases on the basis that they are a danger to public health.

The move was revealed in an EPA statement issued in Washington on Friday night, Australian time:

The proposed finding, which now moves to a public comment period, identified six greenhouse gases that pose a potential threat.

"This finding confirms that greenhouse gas pollution is a serious problem now and for future generations. Fortunately, it follows President Obama?s call for a low carbon economy and strong leadership in Congress on clean energy and climate legislation," said Administrator Lisa P. Jackson.

"This pollution problem has a solution -- one that will create millions of green jobs and end our country?s dependence on foreign oil.

EPA?s proposed endangerment finding is based on rigorous, peer-reviewed scientific analysis of six gases 00 carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide, hydrofluorocarbons, perfluorocarbons and sulfur hexafluoride -- that have been the subject of intensive analysis by scientists around the world.

The science clearly shows that concentrations of these gases are at unprecedented levels as a result of human emissions, and these high levels are very likely the cause of the increase in average temperatures and other changes in our climate.

The announcement has already started a public brawl between the EPA, the Obama Administration and Democratic members of Congress who claim the EPA's proposal will harm Congress' moves to tighten up on climate change and the environment. Business and the Republicans will naturally be upset with outlandish forecasts about cost increases.

Many Democrats want a cap and trade system (such as Congressman Henry Waxman -- a powerful and publicity mad Democrat). The move which is being made under the Clean Air Act of 1973, does have the capacity to circumvent Congress and the legion of lobbyists for industry, greens and everyone else with an interest in this very emotive issue.

Congress Waxman told Bloomberg TV at the weekend that draft legislation being debated this week by a panel of the House Energy and Commerce Committee would "supersede" EPA regulation. Waxman is the committee chairman. he says his draft bill would require industrial polluters to get permits for emissions, which then could be bought and sold on a market.

As President Obama has made curbing greenhouse gases a priority, the move can be seen as putting pressure on Congress to come up with legislation.

The President has asked Congress to pass legislation that would cap carbon- dioxide emissions: there's a monetary lure, Obama has factored in $US650 billion in revenue from a cap-and-trade system from 2012 to 2019.

Bloomberg says the draft legislation referred to be Congressman Waxman would cut greenhouse-gas emissions 20% by 2020. By 2050, emissions would be reduced 83% from 2005 levels under the plan.

The EPA's rules would not allow that new source of trading revenue and tax income to be developed, unless overridden by the Congress.

Like clean air, the move by the EPA, opens the way for new US regulation of cars, power plants and factories. It also has the potential to reach beyond the borders of the US in that to sell products in the US, foreign companies will have to conform.

The proposed EPA move is the first formal action by the US government toward restricting carbon-dioxide emissions that climate scientists say contribute to global warming.

The EPA has strong legal backing for its move.

It is based on a Supreme Court ruling in April 2007 which said the government could restrict heat-trapping gases under the Clean Air Act if it found them a danger to the public health and welfare, and it ordered the EPA to make a determination.

Former President George Bush's Administration wouldn't act, handing the issue over to the Obama Administration with the change of Government.

In its statement the EPA said:

As the proposed endangerment finding states, "In both magnitude and probability, climate change is an enormous problem. The greenhouse gases that are responsible for it endanger public health and welfare within the meaning of the Clean Air Act."

The scientific analysis also confirms that climate change impacts human health in several ways. Findings from a recent EPA study titled "Assessment of the Impacts of Global Change on Regional US Air Quality: A Synthesis of Climate Change Impacts on Ground-Level Ozone," for example, suggest that climate change may lead to higher concentrations of ground-level ozone, a harmful pollutant. Additional impacts of climate change include, but are not limited to:

increased drought;
more heavy downpours and flooding;
more frequent and intense heat waves and wildfires;
greater sea level rise;
more intense storms; and
harm to water resources, agriculture, wildlife and ecosystems.
In proposing the finding, Administrator Jackson also took into account the disproportionate impact climate change has on the health of certain segments of the population, such as the poor, the very young, the elderly, those already in poor health, the disabled, those living alone and/or indigenous populations dependent on one or a few resources.

The proposed endangerment finding now enters the public comment period, which is the next step in the deliberative process EPA must undertake before issuing final findings.

Today?s proposed finding does not include any proposed regulations. Before taking any steps to reduce greenhouse gases under the Clean Air Act, EPA would conduct an appropriate process and consider stakeholder input.

Notwithstanding this required regulatory process, both President Obama and Administrator Jackson have repeatedly indicated their preference for comprehensive legislation to address this issue and create the framework for a clean energy economy.

The EPA has already approved regulations that would force all American factories to produce annual reports on greenhouse emissions. They would start in 2011 and be based on 2010 emissions.

The EPA also found Friday that heat-trapping emissions from motor vehicles cause or contribute to global warming.

The Supreme Court case concerned new cars and trucks, the Clean Air Act directs the EPA to limit emissions from other sources such as power plants if a finding is made that greenhouse gases pose a danger, said Bookbinder of the Sierra Club.

Bloomberg said US power plants account for about 40% of carbon-dioxide emissions, and vehicles make up about 30%. And America produces about 20% of global man-made carbon-dioxide emissions, according to Energy Department figures.
 
R

rugbywhisperer

Guest
Cutter said:
Mainlander said:
Cutter said:
[As far as I can work out, the thing that makes this climate change different to previous climate change (and which is the primary concern for scientists) is that the temperature changes are happening faster than before.

Wrong.

Ice ages happen very quickly, Super volcanos, meteorite collisions, fresh water flooding the northern Atlantic.

Anything that stops the sun penetrating the atmosphere or a continuos winter in the NH.

But if it warming up concerns you then don't buy a house anywhere near the coast.

Personally I'm still trying to sort out how the switching of the Poles is going to effect everything, it is overdue.

Yes, but there hasnt been a massive event like a super volcanoe eruption or a meteor collision. Something is causing this change (as something always causes a system in equilibrium to change). What is it?

The fresh water flooding you mention was a consequence (glaciers melting) of a broader warming and whilst it did lead to a short cooling period, it didnt interupt the longer term warming trend.

So, notwithstanding the absence of a catastrophic one off event, the climate is changing faster than previously which is why its a concern.

Actually Cuts I too am worried about the poles thingy - if that happens too slowly once it starts - and it will start and/or it switches off for a while, climate change is the least you will want to worry about.
 

Langthorne

Phil Hardcastle (33)
This is a difficult thread to resist.

Equlibrium doesn't mean constantly the same (well I hope nobody is suggesting that) - the temperatures, sea levels and the size of polar ice caps have never been constant. They have changed over time (and even without human involvement at all).

So climate change is the norm.

If we accept that the changes are exacerbated by human activity, the next question is,
to what extent are climate changes due to human activity?

If there is guess work involved, then scepticism is the prudent path.

Given that we have limited resources, they should be mustered in the most efficient possible manner.

If we reduce carbon emissions (at great cost) we will be neglecting other possible activities, such as flood defences or relocating threatened populations.

If we then find that the proportion of climate change that was caused by human activity was negligible, in comparison to the natural factors, we will not have significantly affected the causes, nor would we have mitigated the effects.
 
F

formeropenside

Guest
Langthorne said:
This is a difficult thread to resist.

Equlibrium doesn't mean constantly the same (well I hope nobody is suggesting that) - the temperatures, sea levels and the size of polar ice caps have never been constant. They have changed over time (and even without human involvement at all).

So climate change is the norm.

If we accept that the changes are exacerbated by human activity, the next question is,
to what extent are climate changes due to human activity?

If there is guess work involved, then scepticism is the prudent path.

Given that we have limited resources, they should be mustered in the most efficient possible manner.

If we reduce carbon emissions (at great cost) we will be neglecting other possible activities, such as flood defences or relocating threatened populations.

If we then find that the proportion of climate change that was caused by human activity was negligible, in comparison to the natural factors, we will not have significantly affected the causes, nor would we have mitigated the effects.

Heretic! Heretic! Burn the heretic! Quickly, bring the pitchforks!

(just getting in ahead of the crowd) Well said Langthorne.
 
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