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Concussions and Protecting Our Players

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Staff member
Michael Carter, a consultant paediatric neurosurgeon based in Bristol, wrote earlier in the month in the British Medical Journal about the subject and mentioned:

Anyone who has spent an hour picking skull fragments out of the contused frontal lobes of a teenage rugby player is entitled to an opinion on the safety of youth rugby.
.
 

Tex

Greg Davis (50)
Disgraceful from WRFU. Surely the George Smith incident (also due to Hibbard's cast iron skull) taught the rugby world a lesson?
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
If he goes off for the proper checks by a doctor and passes them, what do you expect?

Or should concussion guidelines purely come down to what it looks like on TV and ignore medical evidence?

A lot of people are reacting to what it looks like rather than having any actual insight into the situation. Somehow the fact that he gets a second head knock later in the game is a sign that he shouldn't have been on the field after the first.

Now perhaps the action (or lack thereof) after the second head knock was inappropriate but it doesn't seem to relate to the first moment where he got kicked in the head.
 

Tex

Greg Davis (50)
I'd suggest the rules are too loose and that any loss of consciousness from a blow to the head should precipitate an injury replacement.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
I'd suggest the rules are too loose and that any loss of consciousness from a blow to the head should precipitate an injury replacement.

Medical science says that there is a difference between losing consciousness and concussion. The two aren't mutually inclusive.

You will lose consciousness when your brain stem or cerebellum bumps the skull but that doesn't necessarily signify concussion. Likewise in many situations, someone will be concussed without being knocked out.

It's a difficult area but I find it hard to not just put trust in the doctors using the information available to them. If you start basing it off how bad it looks rather than how bad it actually is, it will result in more problems in my opinion.
 

D-Box

Ron Walden (29)
Now perhaps the action (or lack thereof) after the second head knock was inappropriate but it doesn't seem to relate to the first moment where he got kicked in the head.


Attached is the assessment tool (HIA1) used in game at the elite level. Failure on even one of these should result in a player being removed. I will accept that he could have pass these all with flying colours, however this also comes from the World Rugby Player Welfare site (needs a rugby passport login)

Highlight that the HIA is a supportive tool, not a diagnostic tool. The HIA forms part of the doctor’s assessment and supports a diagnosis.

Clinical suspicion should always overrule a ’normal’ result from any concussion assessment tool including the HIA.

Considering that the medical team are also allowed to view the video as part of their diagnosis there is no way that the doctors were not "clinically suspicions" of a concussion. In this case is should automatically go to the default for all levels of sport - "When in doubt, sit them out"

Personally for me it is not George North who I worry about as he may have passed the HIA1 and the doctors may have legitimately though he was not concussed, but what happens at park level. We normally have a 18/19/20 yo physio student as the trainer on sight, often female who then has to stand up to concussed players and their coaches saying pull him and they just think back to this game or the George Smith vs the B&L Lions and thinkg $%#( that
 

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Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Personally for me it is not George North who I worry about as he may have passed the HIA1 and the doctors may have legitimately though he was not concussed, but what happens at park level. We normally have a 18/19/20 yo physio student as the trainer on sight, often female who then has to stand up to concussed players and their coaches saying pull him and they just think back to this game or the George Smith vs the B&L Lions and thinkg $%#( that

It's not the same though and you're never going to be able to expect professional players with ready access to doctors at the time of the injury to take a more conservative approach than the doctor's diagnosis is predicating just so amateur players might not try to play on after an injury that hasn't received proper medical attention.
 

D-Box

Ron Walden (29)
It's not the same though and you're never going to be able to expect professional players with ready access to doctors at the time of the injury to take a more conservative approach than the doctor's diagnosis is predicating just so amateur players might not try to play on after an injury that hasn't received proper medical attention.


Normally I would agree with you, and even for subsequent return to play following concussion I agree that the elite is not the same as the local player. However when a player hits the deck and doesn't move - I don't care what the HIA or the SCAT it is based on tell you - that player is concussed. The medical officers have a duty of care to the player to keep him off - not look to see if he can recover to come back on. Also as I said previously the concussion culture needs to change in our sport if we want kids to keep playing. This culture change needs to start at the top. I want players saying "Look player X got knocked out and came off I will do the same" not "He stayed on so I should do so to."

I don't care what game or level it is at - someone needs to grow some balls and keep the player off, we have reserves for a reason. I can't remember who the ref was but the one who sent TPN off the field as he was concussed should be held up as an example to all.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
However when a player hits the deck and doesn't move - I don't care what the HIA or the SCAT it is based on tell you - that player is concussed.

Are you a doctor?

That doesn't seem to be what the medical science says.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
Medical science says that there is a difference between losing consciousness and concussion. The two aren't mutually inclusive.

You will lose consciousness when your brain stem or cerebellum bumps the skull but that doesn't necessarily signify concussion. Likewise in many situations, someone will be concussed without being knocked out.

It's a difficult area but I find it hard to not just put trust in the doctors using the information available to them. If you start basing it off how bad it looks rather than how bad it actually is, it will result in more problems in my opinion.
I disagree.
If you err on the side of caution,where is the down side?
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
I disagree.
If you err on the side of caution,where is the down side?

Should we just make it that any time a player appears to bump their head they just need to be withdrawn from the game?

Having properly qualified doctors assessing players off the field against a series of accepted concussion guidelines seems like a reasonable practice to me.

We all know that professional sport is very competitive and if a player passes all the tests and a doctor considers them to not be concussed they won't overrule that and say that I'm still not letting that player back on the field because I saw that they received a head knock.
 

D-Box

Ron Walden (29)
I am not a medical doctor however I do have PhD in Biomechanics and lecture in sport and exercise science.

I will agree that that statement may be a bit strong but it in the current environment it is not a good look. Below is what is included in the Zurich consensus statement which is what the current World Rugby protocols are based on

Symptoms and signs of acute concussion
The diagnosis of acute concussion usually involves the assessment of a range of domains including clinical symptoms, physical signs, cognitive impairment, neurobehavioural features and sleep disturbance. Furthermore, a detailed concussion history is an important part of the evaluation both in the injured athlete and when conducting a preparticipation examination. The detailed clinical assessment of concussion is outlined in the SCAT3 and Child SCAT3 forms, which are given in the appendix to this document.

The suspected diagnosis of concussion can include one or more of the following clinical domains:
1. Symptoms—somatic (eg, headache), cognitive (eg, feeling like in a fog) and/or emotional symptoms (eg, lability);
2. Physical signs (eg, loss of consciousness (LOC), amnesia);
3. Behavioural changes (eg, irritability);
4. Cognitive impairment (eg, slowed reaction times);
5. Sleep disturbance (eg, insomnia).

If any one or more of these components are present, a concussion should be suspected and the appropriate management strategy instituted.

On-field or sideline evaluation of acute concussion
When a player shows ANY features of a concussion:
A. The player should be evaluated by a physician or other licensed healthcare provider onsite using standard emergency management principles and particular attention should be given to excluding a cervical spine injury.
B. The appropriate disposition of the player must be determined by the treating healthcare provider in a timely manner. If no healthcare provider is available, the player should be safely removed from practice or play and urgent referral to a physician arranged.
C. Once the first aid issues are addressed, an assessment of the concussive injury should be made using the SCAT3 or other sideline assessment tools.
D. The player should not be left alone following the injury and serial monitoring for deterioration is essential over the initial few hours following injury.
E. A player with diagnosed concussion should not be allowed to RTP on the day of injury.

Sufficient time for assessment and adequate facilities should be provided for the appropriate medical assessment both on and off the field for all injured athletes. In some sports, this may require rule change to allow an appropriate off-field medical assessment to occur without affecting the flow of the game or unduly penalising the injured player’s team. The final determination regarding concussion diagnosis and/or fitness to play is a medical decision based on clinical judgement.

Sideline evaluation of cognitive function is an essential component in the assessment of this injury. Brief neuropsychological test batteries that assess attention and memory function have been shown to be practical and effective. Such tests include the SCAT3, which incorporates the Maddocks’ questions and the Standardized Assessment of Concussion (SAC). It is worth noting that standard orientation questions (eg, time, place and person) have been shown to be unreliable in the sporting situation when compared with memory assessment. It is recognised, however, that abbreviated testing paradigms are designed for rapid concussion screening on the sidelines and are not meant to replace comprehensive neuropsychological testing which should ideally be performed by trained neuropsychologists who are sensitive to subtle deficits that may exist beyond the acute episode; nor should they be used as a stand-alone tool for the ongoing management of sports concussions.

It should also be recognised that the appearance of symptoms or cognitive deficit might be delayed several hours following a concussive episode and that concussion should be seen as an evolving injury in the acute stage.

McCrory P, Meeuwisse WH, Aubry M, et al. Br J Sports Med 2013;47:250–258. (Try clicking on this link as I think this is open access)

I think the important things in here are:
  1. The final determination should be based on clinical judgement, not passing the SCAT3 (HIA is a variation of the SCAT3). In this most doctors that I talk to consider loss of consciousness to be concussion regardless of the results from sideline assessment tools.
  2. Symptoms may not all be immediately apparent and may come up with a delay following the actual event.
  3. The sideline assessment tools are not comprehensive. They are designed to assess on the sideline in a quick manner. They wont always be right.
 

Strewthcobber

Mark Ella (57)
There's a recent article in the BMJ where the tests, or at least a pilot program, were assessed. The HIA clears a player incorrectly around 10-15% of the time (and the incorrect failure rate is 30%)

Is that acceptable?

That North's second incident wasn't even picked up is where Wales should rightly be asked some very hard qquestions
 

D-Box

Ron Walden (29)
There's a recent article in the BMJ where the tests, or at least a pilot program, were assessed. The HIA clears a player incorrectly around 10-15% of the time (and the incorrect failure rate is 30%)

Is that acceptable?

It is not bad but could be better. This is where the clinical judgement comes in, which it looks like the Drs were more conservative.

What is scary from that paper is this sentence:

Conspicuously, four cases that were ultimately confirmed with concussion had positive findings on subcomponents of the PSCA tool (abnormal tandem balance test: 1; positive symptoms: 3) but returned to play despite their positive PSCA.

I would love to know which games they were!

I know some would say I can't have this but I think clinical decision making should only go one way - that is to over rule a negative test and sit the player out anyway.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
I know some would say I can't have this but I think clinical decision making should only go one way - that is to over rule a negative test and sit the player out anyway.

I completely get what you're saying but it has to be a standard that the players and teams buy into otherwise they'll do their best to avoid following it.

If players think they'll be sat out regardless then they'll start avoiding getting checked for concussion. That's the last thing you want.

The biggest improvement in concussion protocols in recent years has been because the players have started taking it seriously and buying into and respecting the process. If players start feeling that reporting any head knock will get them sat out regardless, they'll stop reporting it.
 

D-Box

Ron Walden (29)
I completely get what you're saying but it has to be a standard that the players and teams buy into otherwise they'll do their best to avoid following it.

If players think they'll be sat out regardless then they'll start avoiding getting checked for concussion. That's the last thing you want.

The biggest improvement in concussion protocols in recent years has been because the players have started taking it seriously and buying into and respecting the process. If players start feeling that reporting any head knock will get them sat out regardless, they'll stop reporting it.


Agreed and this is particularly true of the indirect contacts and hit which don't result in any obvious external signs, but I think for the sake of everyone high profile loss of consciousness should almost automatically result in a player getting pulled.
 
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