England v Australia

[fatprop]

The difference is we have other options that could improve the backs. Eg Cooper for Foley.

The forwards are the best we got. Who can we bring in to fix them? No-one who isn't already injured or ineligible. They current forwards just need to be better.

Oh, I disagree, Moore,TPN or Charles will improve the scrummaging, two of the three will mean improvement for 80 minutes. Sio & Weekes off the bench would also improve the scrum.

Add a stronger Palu at the back and possibly a fit Horwill and there are improvements

 

[Sully]

No hooker will improve our scrummaging on our feed.

 

[vidiot]

Oh, I disagree, Moore,TPN or Charles will improve the scrummaging, two of the three will mean improvement for 80 minutes. Sio & Weekes off the bench would also improve the scrum.

Add a stronger Palu at the back and possibly a fit Horwill and there are improvements

Yeah, in terms of scrummaging for example we can be and usually have been significantly better.

Slipper and Kepu are our first choice props, sure, but they have had a long season with too many minutes and a heavy training schedule if the noises coming out of camp are to be believed.

TPN and Moore will make a difference over Fainga'a, who has played above his weight round the park and thrown well but is not a rock at the set piece.

Having fit locks also (rather than injured Simmons, broken Horwill, exhausted Carter, Jones and the current version of Skelton), for example.

And hopefully one day our back row can learn to keep some sort of shape even when under pressure.

 

[fatprop]

No hooker will improve our scrummaging on our feed.

true, but the issue on Saturday was locking the scrum on their feed, our ball was OK

 

[vidiot]

No hooker will improve our scrummaging on our feed.

In terms of numbers we can't improve - didn't we win every scrum we fed on the weekend?

The Poms just used the scrums they fed to milk penalties and march up the field. I would say it's cynical but it's the rules as they stand.

 

[liquor box]

Reckon we would have performed a lot better at scrum time if Moore or TPN or Charles were the hooker.

I would say better, not a lot better. Saia was one of the better players on the tour.

Moore and TPN are definatly better hookers but would they improve the team by a massive amount?

I think even if we had our "perfect team" the level of improvement would not be enough to win the games we lost this year and we would still be well short of the all blacks

 

[Lindommer]

fp, I fear Horwill's recent dip in form's a permanent state of affairs, sadly. Time waits for no man, I reckon his recent injuries added to his advancing years are catching up with him. By Christ we need Horwill, and other second rowers, to be at the top of their games next year; there's a wonderful opportunity for young 4s and 5s to advance their careers.

We should all keep in mind two outstanding young locks burst on to the senior rugby scene in 1991, John Eales and Warwick Waugh. I know blokes let them don't grow on trees, but if Neville, Coleman and other promising young fellas continue to improve there's a gold jumper and possible glory waiting for them. And it's essential Carter adds some more improvement next year to his development this year. Tah'd fer life 'n' all as I am I don't hold great hopes for Skelton next year, unless he does a massive amount of work on his fitness. I fear he's not mentally tough enough to want to do the hard work, please prove me wrong, Will.

The same opportunities exist for front rowers, especially props. Saia Fainga'a performed heroically this tour, in open play. Others more knowledgeable than me in the dark arts of the front row adjudge his scrummaging to be not up to scratch, I'll accept their verdict. Luckily, we have Moore, TPN and Charles in reserve (if they can all stay fit, that is). But we simply must bring a few more props up to speed, especially a reserve THP. This is where some leadership from the ARU's required: a centrally-managed and funded scrum school. What's Topo Rodriguez doing these days? If we don't find/develop a serviceable reserve THP next year we might as well not turn up.

On to the pretty boys: fer Chrissake, can we PLEASE start playing blokes in their best position. Or, failing that, PUT A NUMBER ON THEIR BACKS AND LEAVE THEM THERE. Look how well Rob Horne's gone this year when left on the wing. And another thing, Cheiks, what's this latest go trying to shoehorn all your favourite backs into the one team? Surprisingly, this Oz side desperately needs fast wingers, Tomane and Speight have the talent but need game time. Yet there were two converted centres wearing 11 and 14 many times this tour. I don't get it, but, there again, who'd be a selector.

 

[maxdacat]

Secondly we need to get a halfway decent kicking game. Coopers ability to kick long and away from the English defenders was in direct contrast to what Foley had been doing all game. JOC (James O'Connor) will add kicking ability to the back 3. I would look seriously at putting Folau back on the wing and having JOC (James O'Connor) or Beale at 15(as much as I cringe at the thought of suggesting KB (Kurtley Beale) as a starter). There must be someone else who can kick and play at 15?
It's really not that hard, and once again, there is no better training ground than the RC.

Jesse Mogg?

 

[maxdacat]

Tah'd fer life 'n' all as I am I don't hold great hopes for Skelton next year, unless he does a massive amount of work on is fitness. I fear he's not mentally tough enough to want to do the hard work, please prove me wrong, Will.

He did lift Hooper in the lineout once so maybe that is something extra he can offer. But yes would be good to see that size being put to good use around the park.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Congrats to England.

My take:

Obviously set piece was under huge pressure - felt fucking sorry for Keps. Why is it that say the Argies can have a better scrum than us. They, I think are lighter. Blades Maybe we need a Northern Hemisphere scrum coach.

Folau was shithouse. Sure he caught some high balls - fuck that is his job. The pass to Horne with the line wide open and the game to be won, was fucking terrible. If Horne had caught it he would have been a magican. It was just very poor skills from a bloke. I was just so shitty at THAT pass.

Yep we dropped ball everywhere.

We lost the game simply because of a shitty pass !!!!!!

 

[maxdacat]

To be fair to our scrum, we actually seemed to pack down ok and held it together for the feed and a few seconds thereafter rather than going straight to ground.

 

[Bullrush]

No one respects the golden jersey, any team spit in our faces

Get some of the players and maybe the coach to respect it first......

 

[Pfitzy]

No hooker will improve our scrummaging on our feed.

Actually they can - even though he's meant to be striking for the ball, the hooker can still put some weight on, and let's face it these guys aren't swing-hooking like the old days, with their hips rotated!

If we take the English method of stepping over the ball rather than worrying about the strike, then guys like Moore and TPN will be of massive benefit.

But ultimately it will require better second rowers to implement a power plan for this type of scrum.

So, if we teach Skelton how to scrum, and whip his arse during off-season, we add Adam Coleman and Caydern Neville to the mix and things start to look better.

As I said elsewhere: Cheika is effectively going to clean the slate in terms of player selection, particularly up front. There are a couple of guys you can pencil in, like Slipper, Moore, TPN, but I wouldn't b using any ink until Cheika says so.

Throw in the interest from Foley and Larkham about assistant roles, and 2015 could be a good year.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Actually they can - even though he's meant to be striking for the ball, the hooker can still put some weight on, and let's face it these guys aren't swing-hooking like the old days, with their hips rotated!

If we take the English method of stepping over the ball rather than worrying about the strike, then guys like Moore and TPN will be of massive benefit.

But ultimately it will require better second rowers to implement a power plan for this type of scrum.

So, if we teach Skelton how to scrum, and whip his arse during off-season, we add Adam Coleman and Caydern Neville to the mix and things start to look better.

As I said elsewhere: Cheika is effectively going to clean the slate in terms of player selection, particularly up front. There are a couple of guys you can pencil in, like Slipper, Moore, TPN, but I wouldn't b using any ink until Cheika says so.

Throw in the interest from Foley and Larkham about assistant roles, and 2015 could be a good year.

Probably ink in Slipper and Kepu and one of Moore or TPN,

Possibly the crim may give Michael Hooper a run for his money. Locks - probably ink in Simmons but the other spot is up for grabs. Then Fardy, Higgers, McMahon, Palu - there are certainly plenty of boys ling up and the Super season should be a beauty (Australian Conference) with plenty of spots up for grabs

 

[Bullrush]

It's something we definitely need massive improvement in, but it's a sad indictment (on England or the Laws of the game) when the England coach admits they used scrums and mauls to generate penalties and not their primary purpose as a contest for possession.

Probably more of an indictment on the Wallaby forward pack that they didn't make the scrums or the mauls a contest for possession. No matter what Lancaster's intentions were, the Wallabies could have contested at maul and scrums whenever they wanted if they had the willingness and ability to do so.

 

[Tordah]

Could easily of had two losses to Aus, one to Wales, three to England, one to Scotland and another to SA. They got through them by the skins of their teeth. Considering that in point number 1) they have ridiculous depth everywhere, it means that Hansen is being out thought for large patches of games.

I'm sorry, but don't rugby games usually last 80 minutes plus? I don't see how the ABs could have lost to Wales, when the Welsh offered absolutely nothing in attack, and were only in the game because of their very well organised rush defence and SBW & Barrett combining for a handling horrorshow.

England: there was only one game which looked in danger, and that was the first one ine the June series. Did you not see the 2nd one? The 28-27 which felt more like a 40-10? The result there was never in doubt, not least because of the two late English tries, one after the buzzer, and the other because Peyper was blind as a bat when he didn't see Perenara stopping Brown from grounding it.

Scotland: see Wales as in: they offered nothing in attack and lived with the ABs for so long because of a well working defence.

I'll give you the two Australia games and the Springboks, but could have would have blabla, it's been the same story for years, whenever the ABs don't have a great game and win it's always the same. The Aussies bottled it, Boks weren't good enough.

I don't see how you can then go on to say South Africa had a good season. They had a very inconsistent, poor season. Atrocious against Argentina both home and away ("could easily of had two losses to Argentina"), a close loss against Australia, yet another loss against ABs, a tight yet not entirely convincing (scraped through on the back of Messam stupidity, a dodgy TV director and then a blind Wayne Barnes not spotting Schalk Burger offside preventing the cleanout at the last ruck) win against ABs and then a shocker of a NH tour.

Australia, too, had a season to forget, not just because of the Beale / McKenzie fiasco, but on the field as well.

I don't deny though, that the ABs have not had a great year performance wise. It was a bit too inconsistent and scrappy, the constant changing at 1st 5 didn't help, but the results were good. What that means for RWC 2015, well, every team is beatable, so that's nothing new. Still, the ABs get the results almost all of the time, and are playing some damn fine rugby some or even most of the time, so there's reason to be optimistic.

Topic: Owen Farrell is a tard, and Chris Ashton looks like Dylan Hartley's deranged little brother. Michael Hooper is not captain's material. Saia Fainga'a looks silly. Matt To'omua was the best 12 in the EOYT of all teams. Folau is the most overrated and overpaid player in Australia.

 

[tragic]

Oh, I disagree, Moore,TPN or Charles will improve the scrummaging, two of the three will mean improvement for 80 minutes. Sio & Weekes off the bench would also improve the scrum.

Add a stronger Palu at the back and possibly a fit Horwill and there are improvements

Did you read the bit that said "no-one who isn't already injured"
Because you've named 6 improvements who are all injured.
The point is there are back line improvements sitting on the pines.

 

[Bullrush]

Folau is the most overrated and overpaid player in Australia.

Agreed with everything except this.

Seriously think the guy needs a break. Must be hard being around some of the shit that goes on in and around the Wallabies sometimes.....

 

[Cardiffblue]

Have added my ruck stats to those from ESPN Scrum.

Forwards' ruck involvement as follows:



View attachment 5693

Hey forcefan did you collect comparative data for the orcs?

 

[Brumby Runner]

fp, I fear Horwill's recent dip in form's a permanent state of affairs, sadly. Time waits for no man, I reckon his recent injuries added to his advancing years are catching up with him. By Christ we need Horwill, and other second rowers, to be at the top of their games next year; there's a wonderful opportunity for young 4s and 5s to advance their careers.

We should all keep in mind two outstanding young locks burst on to the senior rugby scene in 1991, John Eales and Warwick Waugh. I know blokes let them don't grow on trees, but if Neville, Coleman and other promising young fellas continue to improve there's a gold jumper and possible glory waiting for them. And it's essential Carter adds some more improvement next year to his development this year. Tah'd fer life 'n' all as I am I don't hold great hopes for Skelton next year, unless he does a massive amount of work on is fitness. I fear he's not mentally tough enough to want to do the hard work, please prove me wrong, Will.

The same opportunities exist for front rowers, especially props. Saia Fainga'a performed heroically this tour, in open play. Others more knowledgeable than me in the dark arts of the front row adjudge his scrummaging to be not up to scratch, I'll accept their verdict. Luckily, we have Moore, TPN and Charles in reserve (if they can all stay fit, that is). But we simply must bring a few more props up to speed, especially a reserve THP. This is where some leadership from the ARU's required: a centrally-managed and funded scrum school. What's Topo Rodriguez doing these days? If we don't find/develop a serviceable reserve THP next year we might as well not turn up.

On to the pretty boys: fer Chrissake, can we PLEASE start playing blokes in their best position. Or, failing that, PUT A NUMBER ON THEIR BACK AND LEAVE THEM THERE. Look how well Rob Horne's gone this year when left on the wing. And another thing, Cheiks, what's this latest go trying to shoehorn all your favourite backs into the one team? Surprisingly, this Oz side desperately needs fast wingers, Tomane and Speight have the talent but need game time. Yet there were two converted centres wearing 11 and 14 many times this tour. I don't get it, but, there again, who'd be a selector.

An exceptional summation of our present position. An insightful look at our needs for next year if we are to be competitive at RWC.