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Force 2023

ForceFan

ForceFan

Chilla Wilson (44)
Caputo said:
Do you have a list of positions for the 21 in the Academy
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My best guess as follows:
Front Row: Websdale, Lynch, Pearce, Tagg
Locks: Karangaroa, Seve, Legg, Callan, Hetaraka
Back Row: Sawers x 2, Sevele, Maka,
S/H: Phillipson
Backs: Tizzano, Williams, Tipene-Grace, Little, Leahy, McGloin, Landman
 
farva

farva

Vay Wilson (31)
Moving this to a more appropriate place.


molman said:
This is a Wallabies contract first and foremost that is being funded via a specific investment by external parties. If Sua'ali'i wanted to play for The Force I'm sure RugbyAU would have ultimately said no worries.



Likely. But having The Force (WA) pay more to have Wallaby players shuffle from their current team makes no sense for Rugby in Australia and would unlikely result in The Force suddenly being a top performing team, only dilute the talent already in Australia. They've already lured a couple of Wallabies. You lost Philip, you gained Rodda. No one is stuffing WA, they just need to be smart about recruitment moving forward and to be attracting some younger talent who build an affinity with both the team and WA if that is not their home state (or even country if you've attracted them from NZ, SA etc.. or Fiji, Tonga, Samoa etc..). Countries like Ireland, Scotland & Wales for example have been doing a pretty a good job of scraping the world for any possible player with some heritage (or getting players young and then into the national teams via residency). WA could look to do the reverse (climate in WA might be attractive to some of those northern lads with some links to Australia). There is also a lot of young Australian boys running around in Japan, some who have even percolated up to the Japanese team. Again, The Force should be scouting out some of these future prospects.

Anyway, this could be discussed back and forward, but in a match thread isn't likely the best location.
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I don’t really want to shuffle players. That was not the point. The point was that the Force are not competitive now because they lost their stars when they were cut. The discussion came up because someone had said the Force should no longer be looking at being cut as a reason for not performing. I called that out.
But it did lead to an interesting discussion!
I don’t think the Force will become a top performing team with the injection of more Wallabies, but they will be more competitive. And it will absolutely weaken the team that the players came from… But that is what we accepted when we introduced 5 teams.
As to whether someone is stuffing WA, by cutting the Force in 2018 (whether that was the correct decision is a completely different discussion and I don’t want to go in to it here) the ARU / RA did just that, and the Force are still paying for it. My thoughts are that this should at least be acknowledged, and accept that the Force are behind the 8 ball in the next few seasons, and offer something. I take your point on inflating salaries, and so suggest some salary cap relief for players bought back from overseas / identified that could become Wallaby eligible in a few years (someone like Kibiridge would be a great option here for example).
I also think the Force are rebuilding and will be a lot more competitive in 3 years time (as long as Cameron Kline and Bill Pulver are not allowed within 100 miles of Wallaby HQ).
 
molman

molman

Peter Johnson (47)
farva said:
Moving this to a more appropriate place.




I don’t really want to shuffle players. That was not the point. The point was that the Force are not competitive now because they lost their stars when they were cut. The discussion came up because someone had said the Force should no longer be looking at being cut as a reason for not performing. I called that out.
But it did lead to an interesting discussion!
I don’t think the Force will become a top performing team with the injection of more Wallabies, but they will be more competitive. And it will absolutely weaken the team that the players came from… But that is what we accepted when we introduced 5 teams.
As to whether someone is stuffing WA, by cutting the Force in 2018 (whether that was the correct decision is a completely different discussion and I don’t want to go in to it here) the ARU / Rugby Australia did just that, and the Force are still paying for it. My thoughts are that this should at least be acknowledged, and accept that the Force are behind the 8 ball in the next few seasons, and offer something. I take your point on inflating salaries, and so suggest some salary cap relief for players bought back from overseas / identified that could become Wallaby eligible in a few years (someone like Kibiridge would be a great option here for example).
I also think the Force are rebuilding and will be a lot more competitive in 3 years time (as long as Cameron Kline and Bill Pulver are not allowed within 100 miles of Wallaby HQ).
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It's a bit of a sliding doors scenario to argue that one way or the other re: The Force still having players you consider stars. Of that team in 2017 a number have retired (eg. DHP, Lance, Hodge, McCalman etc..), some may have evolved into the players they are now (Hardwick, Philips etc) and been attracted to other teams or opportunities anyway (Coleman, Meaks etc..), so it's hard to say what the shape of the team would be now after COVID and all the other trials Rugby in Australia has gone through. Even some of the players of that time in NRC have moved on and might not be there if still in SuperRugby (Tizzano, McDonald etc).

Did the cutting of the club by the ARU (now RugbyAU) have an impact. No doubt. That said, a higher than club tier of rugby was maintained in WA for those couple of years with NRC & GRR, so their was still a path for local talent. If you are not developing players through the local systems then there is always going to be a challenge in attracting and retaining players who likely have friends and family elsewhere (most likely NSW & QLD). Letting The Force throw more money at it isn't a solution though. WA likely doesn't have the allure of living and playing in Japan, France or Europe in general to some of the young players not wanting to commit to their home states, so there is a whole facet of challenges around selling The Force as a good destination for players which I have no doubt the recruitment team there spend time working on.

Kilbiridge is 28, so unless he has some Australian heritage, the 5 years residency doesn't make him a great option for a possible future Wallabies call up. That said, for The Force, should he want to commit to them in a similar way to Marcel Brache, then that's probably not a bad outcome.

It's a shame that Reesjan Pasitoa has been injured this season as he is a genuine WA lad who looked to have the potential to be a player of note.
 
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7137

7137

Alex Ross (28)
FWIW, there is salary cap relief for bringing players over from League or overseas. It’s called the Australian Rugby Foundation. There are mechanisms in place do do that ( and supposedly a guy who can afford it).
 
farva

farva

Vay Wilson (31)
molman said:
It's a bit of a sliding doors scenario to argue that one way or the other re: The Force still having players you consider stars. Of that team in 2017 a number have retired (eg. DHP, Lance, Hodge, McCalman etc..), some may have evolved into the players they are now (Hardwick, Philips etc) and been attracted to other teams or opportunities anyway (Coleman, Meaks etc..), so it's hard to say what the shape of the team would be now after COVID and all the other trials Rugby in Australia has gone through. Even some of the players of that time in NRC have moved on and might not be there if still in SuperRugby (Tizzano, McDonald etc).

Did the cutting of the club by the ARU (now RugbyAU) have an impact. No doubt. That said, a higher than club tier of rugby was maintained in WA for those couple of years with NRC & GRR, so their was still a path for local talent. If you are not developing players through the local systems then there is always going to be a challenge in attracting and retaining players who likely have friends and family elsewhere (most likely NSW & QLD). Letting The Force throw more money at it isn't a solution though. WA likely doesn't have the allure of living and playing in Japan, France or Europe in general to some of the young players not wanting to commit to their home states, so there is a whole facet of challenges around selling The Force as a good destination for players which I have no doubt the recruitment team there spend time working on.

Kilbiridge is 28, so unless he has some Australian heritage, the 5 years residency doesn't make him a great option for a possible future Wallabies call up. That said, for The Force, should he want to commit to them in a similar way to Marcel Brache, then that's probably not a bad outcome.

It's a shame that Reesjan Pasitoa has been injured this season as he is a genuine WA lad who looked to have the potential to be a player of note.
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Most of the players from 2017 would be near the end of their careers or retired, it was 6 years ago. I think Hardwick, Rangi, Louwrens, Rona and Philip are still kicking around but hard to say where they will be now. But there would be more players coming to fill the gaps after that, and be built into top players.
And NRC / GRR were certainly there but if a player has international aspirations (and most super quality players would) you will not keep them.
On the retention side, it’s an interesting question. The Rebels have done it, they are in a position the Force were in around 2016/17 - a group of local players starting to come through with a couple at Wallaby level, and then a raft of players from Qld and NSW (and WA) to backfill with, who are at super level / pushing for Wallaby selection / wallaby incumbents. Brumbies do it too. And then the AFL is built on that, with the draft system. There are systems that make it work and I don’t think rugby players are more precious than an AFL player (and some AFL players do get homesick but for most it works well). One of the main points of the Force and Rebels was to get younger guys experience at top flight rugby and not be stuck behind a single incumbent in a concentrated market. It needs to work for the good of Aus rugby. And then the local comp is providing a steady half dozen to dozen players for the Force (I think six WA players in the main squad and another 12 in the academy).
I did not realise Kilbiridge was so old (and had such a difficult name to spell!). But I’d love to see more of that, being players over, particularly if they have an Aussie grandma, all the better.
 
qwerty51

qwerty51

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Always funny to me these teams recognise the need for more games yet can't lengthen Super Rugby.
 
kiap

kiap

Steve Williams (59)
qwerty51 said:
Always funny to me these teams recognise the need for more games yet can't lengthen Super Rugby.
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Depends what you want from "Super" Rugby.

Do you want yet more games under that "banner" with top players being rested? Make it a double round-robin then ... but IMO it will dilute a weak product even further.

Another option may be to tighten Super Rugby into a single round-robin + finals. Then add back the Super Au to get more games in for squad players + finals for the best Oz team. Play it before soup.
 
qwerty51

qwerty51

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Yes, I don’t mind matches with Test players missing. Happens in NRL all the time.

maybe it’s only possible with a global season but if you had a mid-season June internationals break that would be fine but the comp really needs 20 rounds and to go into August at least.
 
farva

farva

Vay Wilson (31)
7137 said:
FWIW, there is salary cap relief for bringing players over from League or overseas. It’s called the Australian Rugby Foundation. There are mechanisms in place do do that ( and supposedly a guy who can afford it).
Click to expand...
I thought that was the fundraising arm, does it go to Super rugby levels - as in, if say Twiggy put a million dollars in to get a couple of players to the Force, would that then get routed through RA or would it be able to be conditional?
 
7137

7137

Alex Ross (28)
farva said:
I thought that was the fundraising arm, does it go to Super rugby levels - as in, if say Twiggy put a million dollars in to get a couple of players to the Force, would that then get routed through Rugby Australia or would it be able to be conditional?
Click to expand...
It’s how Salteri topped up Folau and how (I assume) the mystery donor is topping up for Sua'ali'i.
 
Mr Pilfer

Mr Pilfer

Bob Loudon (25)
qwerty51 said:
Yes, I don’t mind matches with Test players missing. Happens in NRL all the time.

maybe it’s only possible with a global season but if you had a mid-season June internationals break that would be fine but the comp really needs 20 rounds and to go into August at least.
Click to expand...

I think the season should definitely be longer with double round robin

This year for example, the force have only had 2 home games and the season is basically over for them. Actually it would benefit a team like the force a lot as we don’t have any wallabies that would need to be rested!
 
ForceFan

ForceFan

Chilla Wilson (44)
qwerty51 said:
Always funny to me these teams recognise the need for more games yet can't lengthen Super Rugby.
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It's the conflict of Nthn Hemi v Sthn Hemi and World Rugby's mid-year Test Match Window.
The Super Rugby season can't get longer.

It appears, and confirmed by Simon Cron's interview above, that the WF have given up on waiting for RA to create a second tier competition to help bridge the gap for Club Rugby players and give more games for the wider training squad and Academy Players.
The gap that was previously filled by the NRC.
They become after-Super Rugby games for WF players and per-season games for Nthn Hemi/SE Asia teams.
It also gives the WF a chance to pay their players more as currently they are paid to be Super Rugby players.
If they want to go and play in UK, France, ITM, Japan in the off-season then they are encouraged to do so and earn some extra $$s.
This has always been possible since the 2018 season and the WF came under Tattarang.
 
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