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G&GR GRASSROOTS RUGBY THINK TANK

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Nevawaz

Bob McCowan (2)
This year the Aussie Super conference dolled out points like it was the Eurovision Song Contest, our under 20's got schooled at the Junior World Cup, the Waratahs management spectacularly imploded and we still have no national third tier competition.

Alarm bells anyone? Perhaps not. Perhaps - like the ARU - you believe that being 2nd in the world rankings with best ever 'participation' numbers everything is fine and dandy.

Either way, it's the perennial issue in Australian rugby - are we doing the best with what we have?
Enter the G&GR THINK TANK.

Over the next week or so - while we have no international rugby and our grass roots competitions are in full flow - Green and Gold Rugby will go beyond the usual howling at the moon. We want to tap our collective functioning braincells to nut out the $64,000 question:




By 'grassroots', we mean anything below the elite level - so that can be school, club, kiddies or Super Rugby and everything else that isn't the Wallabies.

We'll start off with a few articles on the front page to get the juices flowing and encourage you to wrap your educated thoughts about it all into comment/posts - the best written and most interesting of which we'll elevate into blog posts of their own accredited to you.

In this thread you may want to take pieces of earlier posts in other threads and incorporate them into your arguments - that's OK. But as much as possible leave this thread free of cheap quips and rebuttal - make powerful arguments instead.

Depending how this all works out, you never know what we can put together. There's an ARU governance review that this might fit nicely into..

There are two sides of grass roots development that can be looked at, one is participation numbers - growing the base through a familiarity and enjoyment of the game and the other being the development of professional rugby players. Obviously they are connected however at present the quality/depth isn't coming through at the current level of participation.

Ideally rugby would be developing its own players though given the standard of today's Wallabies and Super Rugby sides it could be argued that we are not producing the standard of footballer we require to be as competitive as we'd like. If the ARU and/or the Super Rugby teams in conjunction with the (private) schools could offer scholarships to the best kids in whatever code we might see the next Ben Barba or Greg Ingliss etc playing rugby. Obviously this concept could have as many downsides as upsides and isn't preferable to producing your own.

Participation on the other hand could be tackled by utilising current members/players in all rugby clubs. Using these guys as development officers whether it be recruiting kids in shopping centres in the pre-season, coaching at schools and clubs, organising competitions and promoting their club in and around their local area. Obviously not all have the time or inclination to take on these tasks however out of a club of 80-100 players you'd hope to get a few that are keen to contribute in some way. The ARU could even offer some kind of reward system eg points redeemed for tickets, jeseys etc for time spent spreading the game.

Successful and entertaining professional teams would make the job a a lot easier.
 
S

saulih

Guest
Random thoughts...

1. Agree totally with Paarlbok - get going at the youngest level with persistent and unrelenting development. At this level the average parent is looking for an environment where little Johnnie can learn character - being a good sport, trying your hardest - among other things too. Rugby can and should have those qualities down better than any sport out there. Having positive role models to look up to are important for the parents here too - busting the balls of elite players that go over the line in their public behaviour should be applauded with this in mind. A problem is the loss of players once they leave school, or go from junior to High school. Stronger networking to ensure players progress to the next age level up should be the goal here. The payoff will come down the road, with players having a stronger identification with the sport of rugby - having played there whole childhood - That in turn impacts the next generation.

2. Rugby supporters do the sport a disfavor when they tell the uninitiated that Rugby is 'complex' or 'hard to understand'. The uninitiated will never fall in love with the game if you bore them to tears trying to explain the intricacies of the ruck. Far better to laud the free flowing nature of the game, and the continual contest for the ball. Those qualities can be immediately appreciated, and the details can come later.

3. League owes union a whole crapload - with the total of players they have poached dating back to the early 1900's when it first started. It's about time they started giving some players back. Unions should do everything they can to poach players from their ranks - to play 'proper' rugby. (There is something to be said for having your nose in the air a bit with the game of union - it is a better sport.) Mungo players should be encouraged to 'try it out for a season', join in a summer sevens comp, or any other strategy we can come up with. Unabashed, full on poaching from the junior ranks to the senior at HS. Develop an attitude of 'so when is Johnnie going to start playing Union?' among recruiters.

4. There is a lot of video of games that is produced - mainly for judicial purposes - that could have a market. Free-to-air is not the right place for this because it is far too much of a niche audience for the ultimate shotgun approach that is FTA. These games could be packaged as a 'season ticket' to be downloaded by interested parties online. Imagine a package of all Brisbane premier league matches available for online playback for $50/$100 (whatever it costs), marketed through the clubs to families and friends and supporters of the players and clubs. The club gets a percent for every package they sell. The rest goes to the video production company, QRU, ARU and whoever else needs to get their slice of the pie. Not a lot of money, but outside money that all comes back to funding the expenses of teh game. Heck the video is getting paid for already - why can't i pay to see it! I would love to watch my nephew take the field but I live on the other side of the world and I can't. Make this happen already!

Anyways, good start GGR on getting grassroots elevated on the priority scale. I particularly like how an article pops up on GGR about School rugby right next to an article on the Bledisloe - with equal weight. No need to go looking for it, not buried under some second level menu, nope right there on the front page. Love it. Exactly the type of pump priming that grassroots needs - keep it up.
 

cg26

Stan Wickham (3)
Hence in Australian rugby, if we win the bledisloe / RWC, most other stuff will take care of itself here and there.


Why do we have to be the best team in the world to get kids interested in the sport? Clearly this incentive isn't needed for League and AFL where the international competition is extremely minor. Maybe it's not in spite of a lack of international competition that they are popular, but because we never have to see our teams get defeated by another country. Maybe Australia will get over this bizarre superiority complex now we don't get so many Olympic medals.... The rush of Olympic silver will teach people that being umm, the SECOND BEST rugby nation in the world really shouldn't cause some massive drop in participant motivation.

Or maybe we could take tips from sports like soccer and basketball that have high participation despite Australia not having the best team in the world.....


Rugby is a complex and difficult sport to follow, most people do not want complex in their code of football. Hence Football, league and Aussie rules are simple. Grange Hermitage is complex: VB is simple.

Personally I don't think rugby is more complex than Aussie rules!


Random thoughts.
2. Rugby supporters do the sport a disfavor when they tell the uninitiated that Rugby is 'complex' or 'hard to understand'. The uninitiated will never fall in love with the game if you bore them to tears trying to explain the intricacies of the ruck. Far better to laud the free flowing nature of the game, and the continual contest for the ball. Those qualities can be immediately appreciated, and the details can come later.

Absolutely agree. I enjoyed rugby more than league before I understood anything about either because 'they don't have to stop and just let the guy give the ball back to his team' and 'it's not just running into a wall like that other game'. I also thought the guys pushing each other in the scrum was pretty fierce, none of this pretend scrumming/ankle-kicking/might as well just have a group hug for a minute.

I wish the TV sometimes had an instructional segment on the rules though. It could be before the game or after with replays of umpire calls from the game. Obviously not every game but maybe before big ones. You wouldn't have to watch it if you're not a novice viewer. The game is so much more enjoyable when you understand why they're stopping. Modern instant replays and audio of the refs are great but don't go quite far enough. A lot of the time even the seasoned rugby fan is in the dark about what the ref called and why.
 

southsider

Arch Winning (36)
ok so ill have a crack here

first off whoever said touch no oztag could meld with rugby didnt really research that one, both are their own sports in their own right and seeing as oztag is run by bill harrigan im pretty sure he wouldnt want union anywhere near it anyway.

besides that. i think summer should be rugby 7's time, of course it would work on a smaller scale bacause the demand wouldnt be as high but would give exposure to that form of the code and would have limited competition from rival sports. From this you could choose rep teams etc, could work at both club and school level

Now for schoolboy rugby to grow they need a NRL style arrive alive cup (or whatever its called these days) a competition where the state schools can challenge the sport schools and the sport schools can challenge the private schools. Private schools dont necissarily have to give up their weekend comps but they do have to bite the bullet and put their best team on for this sort of comp to work

shute shield teams and the tahs (only doing nsw here) need to work together to promote the game, having development officers like the afl and nrl do, going out asking schools if they can come and promote the game of rugby

shute shield teams also need to do more to keep their local and junior players, dunno about other teams but as a souths fan i look at team sheets for colts and grade and see lots of locals running around for other teams (and their just the ones i know of) i find this unacceptable and greater effort sgould be made to keep junior teams together through to seniors
 

dermo

Larry Dwyer (12)
ok so ill have a crack here

first off whoever said touch no oztag could meld with rugby didnt really research that one, both are their own sports in their own right and seeing as oztag is run by bill harrigan im pretty sure he wouldnt want union anywhere near it anyway.

besides that. i think summer should be rugby 7's time, of course it would work on a smaller scale bacause the demand wouldnt be as high but would give exposure to that form of the code and would have limited competition from rival sports. From this you could choose rep teams etc, could work at both club and school level

Now for schoolboy rugby to grow they need a NRL style arrive alive cup (or whatever its called these days) a competition where the state schools can challenge the sport schools and the sport schools can challenge the private schools. Private schools dont necissarily have to give up their weekend comps but they do have to bite the bullet and put their best team on for this sort of comp to work

shute shield teams and the tahs (only doing nsw here) need to work together to promote the game, having development officers like the afl and nrl do, going out asking schools if they can come and promote the game of rugby

shute shield teams also need to do more to keep their local and junior players, dunno about other teams but as a souths fan i look at team sheets for colts and grade and see lots of locals running around for other teams (and their just the ones i know of) i find this unacceptable and greater effort sgould be made to keep junior teams together through to seniors

Its called the Waratah Shield
 

southsider

Arch Winning (36)
Its called the Waratah Shield

im well aware of what the waratah shield is but

1) arrive alive cup is national (well as national as league can be) waratah shield is only for nsw and act teams

2) im sorry if i offend anyone with this but there are rarely any quality schools that compete, USUALLY it may have a couple of sports schools and one or two crappy private schools
 

Dave Beat

Paul McLean (56)
im well aware of what the waratah shield is but

1) arrive alive cup is national (well as national as league can be) waratah shield is only for nsw and act teams

2) im sorry if i offend anyone with this but there are rarely any quality schools that compete, USUALLY it may have a couple of sports schools and one or two crappy private schools

Interest as I dont pay attention - apart from NSW & QLD, how many schools, and how do they fair in the Arrive Alive Cup (thats national).
 

dermo

Larry Dwyer (12)
im well aware of what the waratah shield is but

1) arrive alive cup is national (well as national as league can be) waratah shield is only for nsw and act teams

2) im sorry if i offend anyone with this but there are rarely any quality schools that compete, USUALLY it may have a couple of sports schools and one or two crappy private schools

Very true but the problem is the big GPS schools train every afternoon and a few mornings each week, they play a pretty tough game on saturdays considering there age and on top of this seeing as most of the boys in these teams are in yr 12 they have to study for their HSC.

While it would be great to have all the best schools in the country playing each other mid week, I dont think it could be crammed in anywhere
 

southsider

Arch Winning (36)
Very true but the problem is the big GPS schools train every afternoon and a few mornings each week, they play a pretty tough game on saturdays considering there age and on top of this seeing as most of the boys in these teams are in yr 12 they have to study for their HSC.

While it would be great to have all the best schools in the country playing each other mid week, I dont think it could be crammed in anywhere

Having gone to a gps school and been part of the rugby program im confident that it could be accomedated if they wanted it to be, all it would have to be would be one wednesday off to play a game every couple of weeks or so (most teams would have a training run on this day anyway) and because this tournaments season would be longer than a gps season the gps teams (who im gethering would be seeded high) wouldnt play any real tough games till possibly after the gps season is over. if some students manage to play club on saturday then back up for reps on sunday i dont see why private school kids cant play 2 games in a week.
 

southsider

Arch Winning (36)
Interest as I dont pay attention - apart from NSW & QLD, how many schools, and how do they fair in the Arrive Alive Cup (thats national).

sorry probably didnt really expalain my point well, as far as im aware only teams from nsw and qld participate in AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) (maybe act too) but this would only be because these two states are the only ones who play league as a school sport (they may play it in other states but not to a high enough level to warrent entry) my point was we need a competition that has all states that play rugby involved
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
Why couldn't it be organised that the winners of each respective competition play off against one another to decide the national championship? Play it as a week-long knockout championship. Take 3 from NSW (GPS, CAS and ISA), 3 from QLD (GPS, TAS, AIC) , the top 2 teams from the ACT and one from both Melbourne and Perth.
 

southsider

Arch Winning (36)
Why couldn't it be organised that the winners of each respective competition play off against one another to decide the national championship? Play it as a week-long knockout championship. Take 3 from NSW (GPS, CAS and ISA), 3 from QLD (GPS, TAS, AIC) , the top 2 teams from the ACT and one from both Melbourne and Perth.

also a very plausible idea, although i feel this only benefits the best teams instead of developing all levels but wouldnt say no to the idea. Back when junior club rugby was played in the 3 zones north,west and south i always wanted them to have a end of season comp of some sort between the best teams, would of loved to have a crack at the teams from other comps
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
im well aware of what the waratah shield is but.....

2) im sorry if i offend anyone with this but there are rarely any quality schools that compete, USUALLY it may have a couple of sports schools and one or two crappy private schools
So tell me, which are the non crappy private Schools?
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
Then you don't know much about the current landscape in Schoolboy Rugby.
Augustines had a 40+ win against Scots this year, with a similiar win over waverley.
Oakhill were beaten by Joeys, but I believe won against Barker who dominated their competition.
Just because a School plays in the GPS or CAS comp, it no longer means they are better than those who don't.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
If Oakhill (ISA) had played Trinity (CAS), there is a good chance that they would have won the CAS tournament undefeated. They beat all the other schools in CAS this year.
 

southsider

Arch Winning (36)
Then you don't know much about the current landscape in Schoolboy Rugby.
Augustines had a 40+ win against Scots this year, with a similiar win over waverley.
Oakhill were beaten by Joeys, but I believe won against Barker who dominated their competition.
Just because a School plays in the GPS or CAS comp, it no longer means they are better than those who don't.

i think it is actually you that knows little...

first off all these games were trials and i dont care what you say trials count for jack

secondly GPS and CAS are known as heavyweights for a reason they are CONSISTENTLY better schools, who cares if augustines or oakhill have one or two good years, history has shown they havent been able to stay competative over the years and thats what being considered a good rugby school is all about. And having two "decent" schools in what is supposed to be a state wide competition isnt somthing to brag about, it needs fixing!!

i hate this whole attitude of the GPS and CAS are over-rated, they are known as the best because they consistently are the best, sure occassionaly one school from a outside comp will rise up and be able to lay claim to being a better team (can only really think of the endevour and westfield teams around 06 that can lay claim to this) but for the most part they are the best, so just deal with it!!
 

The Red Baron

Chilla Wilson (44)
In this thread you may want to take pieces of earlier posts in other threads and incorporate them into your arguments - that's OK. But as much as possible leave this thread free of cheap quips and rebuttal - make powerful arguments instead.

Thought this belonged here.
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
Good one RB, will be looking at what people put together over the weekend to get some thoughts together
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
While doing some google "research" I stumbled on this article. It has probably already been discussed way back when in early 2011 when it was published, but the central theme of the article seems to resonate and be as relevant now as it was back then.

Source:http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spo...ilence-volunteer/story-e6frg7o6-1226032920454

Attack dogs try to silence volunteer

NSW Junior Rugby Union president Paul Taylor's Saturday did not begin well.

At 9am, the phone rang. On the other end was a middle-tier Australian Rugby Union official roundly and quite loudly berating him over comments attributed to him in an article in that day's Sydney Morning Herald about how the cashed-up AFL had doubled its junior player numbers in the city over the past five years.

In the article, Taylor was quoted criticising ARU chief executive John O'Neill for failing to invest in the sport. "It appears every spare cent is spent by the Australian Rugby Union on the professional game," the article read.
"We have a CEO who is out of touch with his constituents and does not care that this is the case. (NSW) Juniors, like most organisations in rugby, is weary of the adversarial management style shown by the current ARU executive."

The words were not given directly to the journalist but instead were taken from an internal email leaked to the newspaper. But while Taylor reportedly was annoyed about them suddenly getting into the public domain, he was not going to disavow them. And he certainly had no intention of retracting them nor of issuing a public apology for them, which is precisely what the middle-tier manager was demanding.

Undeterred, the official informed Taylor that he had until 3.30pm to issue a retraction and that an even more senior ARU administrator would telephone him to "assist" him in the drafting of the retraction.

When ultimately that more senior official made contact, Taylor told him what he had told the underling, that he didn't feel comfortable disowning what was his honestly held belief. The response from the ARU heavyweight was that, in that case, Taylor had compelled the union to act as it saw fit.
Precisely what that means may be left to the imagination. But speaking from personal experience, what usually follows is a very formal letter from one of the best law firms in the country.

It would be interesting, just as an aside, to know precisely how much money the cash-strapped ARU spends on defending the reputations of its senior officials but, try as I might, I can't find that number in the union's financial statements. What I have found, however, are O'Neill's salaries for 2008 ($841,300) and 2009 ($688,750). The 2010 annual report still is not posted on the ARU's website.

Now, encouraging as it is to see his salary trending downwards at a time when the ARU is savagely cutting back program after program, these things are still relative. When I Googled the Prime Minister's salary, for instance, the figure of $333,000 presented itself, so it would seem that O'Neill, who is in overall charge of Rugby Inc worth, all up, around $230 million, is being paid roughly double what Julia Gillard is to run a country with a nominal GDP of around $1.2 trillion. What's more, when last I looked, Gillard cops an extraordinary amount of criticism and abuse from constituents and just takes it on the chin. It comes with the job.

Then again, she is elected. And part of the process of being elected is that she is required, from time to time, to articulate her vision for the country. Australians listen, politely or otherwise, and pass judgment on her. That is the democratic process.

If O'Neill has articulated a vision for Australian rugby, I'm certainly not familiar with it. Anyway, the best way of evaluating the ARU is to observe it in action and on just about every front it is scaling back, shrinking the game, centralising control at every level.

That's not to say that Australian rugby doesn't need to tighten its belt at present. Several major sponsors have turned their backs on the ARU and, astonishingly, the union still does not have a naming rights sponsor for Super Rugby.

No one is complaining that the belt-tightening is being extended to the players because, frankly, even they admit they've done very well out of a deal struck right at the dawn of professionalism when they had the ARU over a barrel. But everywhere else, the cutbacks are hurting badly. Rugby's excess fat has long since been trimmed away. When the ARU's interfering Razor Gang cuts now, it's cutting perilously close to the bone.

If it was apparent to all that the ARU is taking one step backwards in order to take two or three steps forward, then all the constituent bodies presently seething with resentment and anger might fix their eyes on the big picture and work with the national body. But they have long since lost faith in the leadership of Australian rugby.

Taylor had no idea that what he had intended as an internal memo would form the basis of paragraphs two, three and four of a Sydney Morning Herald story but he bravely is standing by what he and thousands of others in Australian rugby regard as the truth.

It is unpaid volunteers like Taylor who are keeping the game alive at the grassroots level. What does it say about the state of Australian rugby that generously paid administrators are now whistling up their attack dogs in an attempt to silence him?
 
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