IS OUR GAME GROWING?

[Inside Shoulder]

Are you saying that if parramatta fails, then the rest of Australia will ultimately fail as well?

Maybe - not because there is a causal relationship but because it is a symptom of the indifference.
Rugby is showing signs of multi organ failure.
Transplant (Folau for instance) cannot address the systemic problem.

 

[barbarian]

Maybe - not because there is a causal relationship but because it is a symptom of the indifference.
Rugby is showing signs of multi organ failure.
Transplant (Folau for instance) cannot address the systemic problem.

Which is?

I'm sick of all these people talking about the 'death' of rugby or the 'destruction' of rugby as if it will somehow cease to exist as a sport in years to come. It's just bullshit. Same goes for shit about 'multi organ failure'.

Say what you want about rugby in certain regions, and say what you want about the manipulation of statistics. But what the numbers show is that rugby isn't doing too badly, and certainly won't be dead in our lifetime. In the heartland areas it is just as strong as ever, which is a good thing regardless of what you may think of the heartland.

And no I'm not saying that we shouldn't try and spread the game. Yes I think the ARU could be doing more.

But let's not kid ourselves into believing that rugby is currently in a catastrophic state with only years to live.
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[qwerty51]

Spot on Baabaa, people should also look outside Australia, the sport is absolutely booming - everywhere.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Which is?

I'm sick of all these people talking about the 'death' of rugby or the 'destruction' of rugby as if it will somehow cease to exist as a sport in years to come. It's just bullshit. Same goes for shit about 'multi organ failure'.

Say what you want about rugby in certain regions, and say what you want about the manipulation of statistics. But what the numbers show is that rugby isn't doing too badly, and certainly won't be dead in our lifetime. In the heartland areas it is just as strong as ever, which is a good thing regardless of what you may think of the heartland.

And no I'm not saying that we shouldn't try and spread the game. Yes I think the ARU could be doing more.

But let's not kid ourselves into believing that rugby is currently in a catastrophic state with only years to live.
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Quite right - we should be aiming for a 34% decline in numbers across the board

 

[barbarian]

Quite right - we should be aiming for a 34% decline in numbers across the board

Good response, what a great way to debate the issues.
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[wamberal]

I think you chaps need to recognise that there are some extraordinary changes happening. Schools like the High School that I attended no longer have a rugby programme, because of the demographic changes in their enrolment - my school produced a lot of senior and subby players over the years. I doubt that they produce any now. By the way, it is an academically selective school in Sydney's inner west.

We visited some friends in Terrigal over the weekend, a Fijian man who was a good rugby player in Fiji, and his Aussie wife, they have a six year old son. The son is playing league. Multiply this story a few hundred thousand times. The PI kids that I thought would be swelling our playing ranks, are not, or not many of them.

Straws in the wind. Or planks in the hurricane.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Good response, what a great way to debate the issues.
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Perhaps you should re-read your own post: do you seriously mean to suggest that your outburst was intended to promote debate?
In deference to that remote possibility: there's not much point sending out missionaries if the existing adherents are leaving in droves.
Its difficult to grow any undertaking if you cant hold onto the existing customers: you need a convert for every one who leaves just to maintain the status quo. And once you vacate a junior ground for a season it will be booked up by the enemy and it will never be available for our game.
Rugby wont die in this country. It will be like it was prior to 1995 or, more likely, 1985. If all the other places in which it is played are going ahead that means we will struggle to compete.
Attention must be focused on the grass roots to build a game that can survive.

 

[barbarian]

I think you chaps need to recognise that there are some extraordinary changes happening. Schools like the High School that I attended no longer have a rugby programme, because of the demographic changes in their enrolment - my school produced a lot of senior and subby players over the years. I doubt that they produce any now. By the way, it is an academically selective school in Sydney's inner west.

We visited some friends in Terrigal over the weekend, a Fijian man who was a good rugby player in Fiji, and his Aussie wife, they have a six year old son. The son is playing league. Multiply this story a few hundred thousand times. The PI kids that I thought would be swelling our playing ranks, are not, or not many of them.

Straws in the wind. Or planks in the hurricane.

Why not multiply it by a million?

Whilst your anecdotal evidence may be interesting, it is just that- anecdotal. The numbers have come back and they are as good as ever.

Some schools have dropped off the rugby map, but others have come on- look at what St Augustines is doing on the Northern Beaches.

I'm not discounting your stories, but extending your (narrow) experiences to the whole of the nation is fraught- surely you must see that?
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[barbarian]

Perhaps you should re-read your own post: do you seriously mean to suggest that your outburst was intended to promote debate?
In deference to that remote possibility: there's not much point sending out missionaries if the existing adherents are leaving in droves.
Its difficult to grow any undertaking if you cant hold onto the existing customers: you need a convert for every one who leaves just to maintain the status quo. And once you vacate a junior ground for a season it will be booked up by the enemy and it will never be available for our game.
Rugby wont die in this country. It will be like it was prior to 1995 or, more likely, 1985. If all the other places in which it is played are going ahead that means we will struggle to compete.
Attention must be focused on the grass roots to build a game that can survive.

Maybe in Sydney (although i would contest that), but you completely disregard the strides our game has made in Victoria, Western Australia and Queensland.

Rugby will never go back to what it was in the 80s and 90s. It's a different game now, growing in some areas and declining in others. This will continue as it always has.

But this talk of 'death' and 'survival' and 'enemy' don't really help anyone.
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[Inside Shoulder]

Maybe in Sydney (although i would contest that), but you completely disregard the strides our game has made in Victoria, Western Australia and Queensland.

Rugby will never go back to what it was in the 80s and 90s. It's a different game now, growing in some areas and declining in others. This will continue as it always has.

But this talk of 'death' and 'survival' and 'enemy' don't really help anyone.
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You mentioned death - not me.
This isn't a debate this is just you rubbishing anyone who disagrees with you.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

There are reports in the West OZ media today that rugby is bigger in WA than it's ever been, with a substantial increase over the last year. There are something like 8,000 registered players across the state now.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/sp...growth-has-rugby-chiefs-beating-their-chests/

Rugby participation in WA grew by a record 11.5 per cent this year with more than 8000 players registered with the State union.
The rise in numbers was part of a national trend, the fourth consecutive year of nationwide growth and the first time more than 300,000 are playing rugby.

So yeah, the game is growing.

 

[barbarian]

You mentioned death - not me.
This isn't a debate this is just you rubbishing anyone who disagrees with you.

How have I rubbished you? Are you going to respond to my point about statistics, or states other than NSW, or just throw stones?

And I know you didn't use the word 'death', that came from Wamberal's original thread title from a few months back.
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[barbarian]

There are reports in the West OZ media today that rugby is bigger in WA than it's ever been, with a substantial increase over the last year. There are something like 8,000 registered players across the state now.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/sp...growth-has-rugby-chiefs-beating-their-chests/

So yeah, the game is growing.

Great news, testament to the good work put in by the guys at the Force and WA Rugby.
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[The_Brown_Hornet]

Great news, testament to the good work put in by the guys at the Force and WA Rugby.
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Yeah it's great, but even better is the news that the game is growing at the grass roots nationally too. According to the linked article, player numbers breaching 300,000 for the first time. I think that's fantastic.

 

[TOCC]

Given the statistics just posted by the ARU it confuses me how people still dispute that the grassroots part of the game is growing.....

 

[Inside Shoulder]

How have I rubbished you? Are you going to respond to my point about statistics, or states other than NSW, or just throw stones?

And I know you didn't use the word 'death', that came from Wamberal's original thread title from a few months back.
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The stats are good. Its great there are new players signing up in those places.
Its not good that terrigal (home of the Terrigal Trojans - "a trojan for me, a trojan for me) cant jag the PI Wamberal is talking about.
Its not good that an aspirational area like North Western Sydney suffers a loss of 34% of its players: a stat you havent addressed.
I'm no business man but everything i've read or heard from or about people who are says you have to retain the people you already serve before you worry about the potential new customers for reasons i have already given.
I dont see that growing the game in WA and NW Sydney are mutually exclusive aims.

 

[barbarian]

IS there will ALWAYS be negatives, and if you want to continually highlight them well knock yourself out. But when you exaggerate them and start saying things like:

Rugby is showing signs of multi organ failure.
Transplant (Folau for instance) cannot address the systemic problem.

it doesn't help anyone. It clouds the issue, and makes you start to sound like Chicken Little.

The 34% statistic isn't even correct, as that includes two clubs who went from Parramatta to Penrith. So while there is a drop, and that can't be glossed over, the use of an incorrect statistic again exaggerates the problem.

And this nonsense about 'retaining the people you serve' doesn't make any sense at all. I agree that growth in Parra and WA isn't mutually exclusive, but there are plenty of differences in the two situations. And it is possible for one to grow and the other to decline.

My objection to your line of argument though comes down to a core rugby philosophy that guys like you and Wamberal exhibit in almost every thread. It's a relentless negativity, and desire to see the worst in everything- from players to coaches to administrators to journalists to fellow posters. Sometimes it is justified, but then there are times like this when it clearly isn't.

Rugby isn't dying. In fact it is growing. So crack a smile for once in your life and look on the bright side.
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[Druid]

If we look at Sydney (and I realise that this is not reflective of the rest of Australia or the world), and we try and take out the yearly rise and fall of numbers and look at longer term (i.e. since 2007 - 2012), village club, registered players what you will find is the following trend.

Wests (+4%), Parramatta (-36% **), Southern District (-35%), Eastwood (-17%)
Gordon (+20%), Warringah (+4%), Manly (+20%), Norths (+20%)

If you take Rooty Hill & Hawkesbury out of Parramatta's numbers you will get a -5% decline.

What you see above is the slow decline in numbers in the outer lying areas, but the strengthening of numbers in the "Heartland" areas of Sydney. If we are talking about truly growing the game (and again I am only referring to Sydney here), is this a satisfactory way of doing it? i.e. how do we get consistent growth in all areas across Sydney basin?

 

[Rob42]

Well, the club that my son plays for - in the Parramatta district - has seen a healthy and steady increase in numbers at the minis level for the past few years. Take that as you like - either indicative of the patchwork nature of the anecdotal evidence, or indicative of how drastic the drop-off must have been in other parts of that district.

To me, it shows that the way to grow a rugby club is through the hard work of volunteers at the ground level - parents promoting the game to friends at school, organising good events, etc. The sort of thing that you can't - and shouldn't - rely on the ARU, or NSWRU or any administration, to provide. No question there are problems within the Parramatta district - my son's club has often to look to other districts to get consistent games - but perhaps these issues aren't all down to the larger rugby administrations.

 

[BellyTwoBlues]

Yeah it's great, but even better is the news that the game is growing at the grass roots nationally too. According to the linked article, player numbers breaching 300,000 for the first time. I think that's fantastic.

Statistics....Love them. You all know they can be manipulated to suit whatever outcome you want to highlight.

The truth is, yes 300,000 people took part in some sort of rugby match for the first time. What that's not telling you though is that the participants are counted sometimes up to 5 or 6 times.

Example being......11 year old little Johnny shows up at a Try Rugby Event and Mum puts him name down as having attended. Little Johnny then turns up and plays a game for his local village club. Let's say Lindfield. That then counts. Then little Johnny happens to enjoy the experience and plays for his local school, let's say Lindfield Public School. Johnny then plays a great game as is picked to participate in the PSSA tournament for his region, let's say it's North Shore. He then gets picked for the NSW PSSA side. He will be counted 5 times. So whilst only 1 kid has actually played the game, 5 different associaations have counted him and the ARU count all 5. This happens all the way to colts and grade level for seniors though obviously it's not as much.

And also, through the ARU registration system a club can mispell a players name (deliberately or otherwise) to create a new registration for the same person. Case in point, I know of a club (not ours) who instead of renewing the registration each year for their players with the click of a button, they create a new registration entirely. And it might be because his address has changed or mobile number changed. Their admin guy, despite numerous occasions where he has been instructed, simply thinks it's easier to create a new one. If he's one bloke doing that, how many others are out there?