Is the TMO no longer required?

[Muttonbird]

Well, the IRB either trusts the TMO or they don't. By calling for a TMO review, a ref is admitting he didn't see it properly. Now the ref is able to make a decision from the big screen so I come back to the original question. Are the TMO's days numbered? Doesn't seem to be any need for them anymore. Ref can just ask for angles the same way as the TMO does.

 

[Old_laurentian]

Coming in late on this thread. You make a very good point, in that the ref can look at it on the screen, and request viewing angles, but in poor weather conditions I suspect the TMO can see it better, and may be less affected by the baying of the crowd.

 

[Dan54]

And ref on the field would not see as closely as TMO sitting 24 inches away from screen.

 

[Muttonbird]

That's a big part of the point Dan. The TMO is in a controlled environment with all the available tools and doesn't need Nigel Owens in his ear telling him what to think. Either go with the TMO or leave it out all together.

Think it's about time this thread joined the main page.

 

[Muttonbird]

So, there was another incident in the ENG v AB game last night.

The Launchbury try.

Joubert asks for the TMO. At first he doesn't ask for anything in particular iirc. Then, he cuts off the TMO mid speech and begins to tell him what went down. Result? Robshaw was offside but not offside enough. I mean, you either ask for assistance on an offside call and listen to it, or you don't ask at all.

If you ask me, Robshaw's little dig at the ball was against the spirit of the game and yellow card material, ie clearly offside but went for it anyway at the same time risking Launchbury's access to the ball.

 

[Forcefield]

These days it seems that the refs go to the TMO and look at the replay on the big screens. I haven't watched the ENG v AB game yet but it sounds a bit like how Dylan Hartley obstructed Moore but "not enough". Annoying but you just have to get over it.

 

[Muttonbird]

Force, I hear you and you are right, I will have to get over it, but this is exactly the kind of thing that Matt and Scarfman and a whole host of regulars have never got over re: Richie McCaw.

There's some bullshit reffing considered top reffing right now.

 

[Sully]

Funny how your the only one who brings it up though.

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[Forcefield]

Force, I hear you and you are right, I will have to get over it, but this is exactly the kind of thing that Matt and Scarfman and a whole host of regulars have never got over re: Richie McCaw.

There's some bullshit reffing considered top reffing right now.

I must have missed that one. It's easier said than done I guess. Won't get any argument from me on some of the refs. Others have been great though.

 

[Bardon]

I prefer how things work with the new laws regarding the TMO. The Ref is the ultimate power and the TMO now operates like one of his assistants running the line. If the Ref has no way of seeing something then he relies on his assistants and the TMO to advise him on what happened.

But if he has an opportunity to see it on the big screen and is able to make a decision from that then he should. In the Italy v Fiji game it wasn't possible so the Ref relied on the TMO to advise him.

 

[Rob42]

I prefer how things work with the new laws regarding the TMO. The Ref is the ultimate power and the TMO now operates like one of his assistants running the line. If the Ref has no way of seeing something then he relies on his assistants and the TMO to advise him on what happened.

But if he has an opportunity to see it on the big screen and is able to make a decision from that then he should. In the Italy v Fiji game it wasn't possible so the Ref relied on the TMO to advise him.

Yes, I agree that the ref should have the final word, and use the TMO for advice only where possible. But the ref needs to be clear in what he asks for - either to see a big-screen replay to use for adjudication (preferred), or for the TMO to review and assess by himself. Asking the TMO to review and then cutting him off is no good for either party. I guess the refs need to get better at understanding which issues they will be able to adjudicate well from the field, versus those that will need the TMO's eyes only.

 

[Muttonbird]

The Kiwi coach was unhappy over the English official allowing Joe Tomane’s second-half try when the scoring pass from Israel Folau went a yard forward...

Barnes awarded winger Tomane’s controversial 49th minute try, ruling that Folau’s hands had gone backwards in giving the final pass.

The video referee had felt unable to make a conclusive call, so Barnes made the decision himself, much to Wales’ displeasure.

“We thought it was forward,” declared Gatland.

“The referee made the decision himself without the TMO.

“I doubt he would have made that decision himself if it was the All Blacks playing.

“He made the call himself just looking at the big screen.

“It kind of looked like the hands went forward.”

This from Gatland, reported in Wales media. Seems even international coaches aren't clear on the new rules either.

 

[ChargerWA]

I must say Muttonbird, when you first posted this thread I thought you were having a whinge because some calls went agains the ABs, but this thread has genuine legs now. There is a clear trend to the ref making the call themselves.

I think the way forward is the Ref asks for the review and then watches the big screen. If they can't make a decision they then ask the TMO for their opinion. But the Ref is ultimately in charge and I have no issue with them taking the lead in as many situations as possible.

 

[Muttonbird]

Totally serious at all times, me.

I have no issue with the ref being in charge but this is a "trend" which was introduced by the IRB with a tweet, no doubt having been discussed over a long lunch that day.

The fans want as many decision as possible to be correct but "correct" in rugby is not easy so the best fans can hope for is professional and transparent. This new directive where the ref over-rides the TMO, puts words in his mouth, and sometimes calls off the screen and sometimes doesn't looks neither professional nor transparent to me.

The RSA v AB match at Ellis Park was just the third match to use the new directive and that was where I had my whinge. Poite famously didn't use it after the BdP hit on Carter. Barnes was his usual shower of crap on Saturday and managed to botch the Cooper YC. As more teams get negatively affected by this amateurishness, the IRB will be forced to react.

 

[Sully]

I've got to say I don't like it. The ref asks the TMO for a decision then doesn't wait for them to give an answer! Why ask in the first place if your not interested in what they have to say.

 

[Ruggo]

Barnes though well within his rights made himself look like an arrogant prick. His question should have been to provide the footage and he will make the call. It all came across as if he was undermining his peers. He treats them with the same contempt he does with the players. The blokes game management is shit house.

 

[cyclopath]

I have to say, I prefer the ref looking at the angles on the screen himself, and making a call, as he knows exactly what he is looking for. If unclear, get the TMO input.
I think they need to fine tune the current process which is a bit messy with asking for TMO input, then seemingly over-ruling them, when I think all the refs really want is a look themselves. They should ask for the replays clearly, then ask for TMO input if needed thereafter.

 

[Braveheart81]

I don't mind what is currently happening. It just needs to be made a little clearer in terms of process.

I think the referee is ultimately in control of the game so I'm happy for them to be calling for replays and then making a decision prior to the TMO saying anything. If they wait for the TMO's decision then I don't think they can contradict it.

I think Barnes made the correct call regarding the Tomane try. The pass wasn't clearly forward and the replays seemed to pretty clearly indicate that the ball left his hands backwards or at worst flat. I think these decisions tend to be overthought by the TMO and I'm happy for the referee to take charge.

At the end of the day, I'd prefer the main referee to be making the big decisions and being in control. I don't really like the situation where often the most crucial and tough decisions of the match are made by the TMO who is not the main official.

 

[ChargerWA]

I know there are going to be some people saying shock/horror you cant be serious, but it also reduces the chance of a hometown decision.

Not saying any country in particular is guilty of it, but I have noticed annecdotally a tendency for a hometown TMO to be more likely to make a hometown decision than the ref in the middle.

 

[Sully]

What about the quality of the replay on the big screen? Surely the Two is looking at a higher definition replay.

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