Discussion in 'Rugby Discussion' started by Schadenfreude, Nov 28, 2011.
That is incorrect.
Please educate me to the contrary.
History of the game
Melbourne was a burgeoning city built on the riches of the 1850s gold rush by the time Australian football first appeared in 1858. As with other areas of British settlement during the 19th century, cricket emerged as the primary summer sport. Concerned about off-season fitness, cricketer Thomas Wentworth Wills (1835–80), who was born in Australia but educated at Rugby School in England—where he captained the cricket team and excelled in football—believed that a football club should be formed to keep his teammates fit during winter. The Melbourne Cricket Club agreed with Wills’s suggestion and, as there were no standardized football codes at that time, appointed a committee to devise a set of rules. The Melbourne and Geelong football clubs were established in 1858 and 1859, respectively, and are two of the oldest football clubs in the world. The rules agreed to by the committee on May 17, 1859, were a compromise between those of several English public schools, notably Winchester, Harrow, and Rugby. Players were allowed to handle the ball but not to run farther than necessary to kick it. In 1866 H.C.A. Harrison (1836–1929), a cousin of Wills, rewrote the rules. These rules imposed no limit on the number of players, though in the 1880s, 20 men per team became standard.
Concerned about the possibility of injury on the hard Australian grounds, players were reluctant to commit to the tackling and hacking (kicking or tripping an opponent) rules of the Rugby School game, and hacking was banned. Distinctive aspects of Australian football rapidly appeared. At the outset, a provision was made that players who caught, or “marked,” a ball cleanly in the air were allowed a free kick. Players could also retain possession of the ball while running, but after some dispute it was agreed in 1865 that the player with the ball had to bounce it off the turf at least every 10 metres (33 feet). Most crucial, and in contrast to other football sports, there was no offside rule, which meant that players from each team were located behind and in front of the ball during play. By 1874 players no longer scored by carrying the ball between goal posts but scored by kicking the ball through them.
Australian rules football also developed a unique set of goalposts, comprising two large goalposts flanked by two shorter “behind” posts. The centre bounce used by umpires to start games and to restart play after a goal was instituted in 1891 and also remains unique to Australian football. Goal umpires were first mentioned in 1874 in accounts of the game. The practice of the goal umpire’s waving a flag to signal a goal began in Tasmania in 1884 and was adopted in Victoria in 1886.
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The game expanded rapidly during the 1870s and ’80s. In the’70s, matches between the Melbourne and Carlton football clubs attracted as many as 10,000 spectators, who at that time watched for free. Spectators often encroached on the playing surface, and this led to the enclosure of grounds for ease of play. The first facility built specifically for Australian football use appeared in 1876 on land leased by Carlton from Melbourne University. The first Carlton-Melbourne game at the ground attracted 5,000 spectators. By the mid-’80s crowds approaching 34,000 were attending matches between leading clubs.
On May 7, 1877, representatives of the Albert Park, Carlton, East Melbourne, Essendon, Geelong, Hotham, Melbourne, and St Kilda football clubs met to form theVictorian Football Association (VFA) for the “promotion and extension of football throughout the colony” and the organization of intercolonial matches. During the 1870s over 125 clubs appeared in Melbourne, and another 60 senior clubs were established elsewhere in Victoria. A regular schedule of matches was developed; additional grounds were enclosed; and VFA clubs were able to charge admission.
The game continued to spread throughout the colonies. In 1877 the South Australian Football Association was formed. Tasmania accepted VFA rules in 1882, and in 1885 the Western Australian Football Association was established. Despite these successes, the game struggled to gain a foothold in the northeastern parts of Australia. The first game in Sydney took place in 1877, but rugby union, with its imperial connections, was favoured by the 1890s. A similar process occurred in Queensland and New Zealand. The great distances that separated colonies and the capital cities meant that regular competition between clubs from different areas was not possible, and indeed the first participation of an interstate team in the main Victorian competition did not occur until 1982. However, because road games between Victorian teams were often only a tram ride away, many fans could go to all of their team’s games in any given season at little expense.
I thought that was in some dispute with many people believing it actually came from a game Aboriginals played in the area.
That's a bit of AFL propaganda, I reckon.
^^^ more importantly, what The honey Badger has found actually doesn't say that "All codes have morphed from Soccer at some level" at all.
OK, I'll try.
Soccer, AFL, Rugby (both variants) have evolved from a common ancestor but none of them have evolved from Soccer. That's actually what the quoted article is saying.
The common ancestor had no fixed rule set and was agreed upon by the two teams prior to the match. That's not "soccer" (or "association football"). It's just football.
This very similar to the "if you believe in evolution, you must be saying an ape is your great-great-etc-father" nonsense.
BTW Sydney University claims 1863 is the date rugby was first played in Oz.
No, football. Get it right.
If people are interested in AFL, Rugby, Football history you should all listen to Tony Colins pod Rugby Reloaded. He’s probably the worlds no.1 ‘rugby’ historian.
- afl is not derived from indigenous games and is basically AFL propaganda as said above.
- there is very little proof that William Webb Ellis picked up a ball and started running with it (rugby’s propaganda)
- rugby is not developed from soccer, infact each county had a different version of ‘football’ and each played to different rules. Some played with the use of hands and others feet only. So when a team went to another county to play, they would play in those counties rules. Over time 2 rule sets eventually took hold and pathed the way for the sports we know today.
Do yourself all a favor and listen to them, some of them are absolutely brilliant and very educational
At this point if only domestic rugby allowed people would watch it in droves as starved of rugby or league - I think I would happily watch a live game of u12s at this point
Yep, so would I provided they were playing rugby. If, and it is a big if, hybrid rules could be developed that allowed us to keep our current advantages, without the leaguies being able to tackle high, I would be interested. But it will never happen, because adequate and equable hybrid rules are never, ever going to be agreed to. Unless this was to become some sort of new professional competition bankrolled by a very rich entity who is prepared for the long haul.
Does he say anything about gridiron as being another version of 'football'?
There is a history of American football pod.
No. 33 How football began - Who invented American Football
For those wanting to know, American football does come from Rugby.
He has plenty of random history pods like rugby in Brazil, Canada, etc.
First I heard of him was this pod on the Blood and Mud Rugby podcast, one of the best podcasts I have ever heard (apart from all the GAGR pods) and a must listen for any rugby fan
Many, many thanks for posting that. I know who Tony Collins is but was utterly unaware he had a podcast series with a zillion episodes! I‘ve download about a half-dozen and many more will follow.
To assist the convo, I would recommend the following 6-part series about rugby. It was on during the recent RWC and was jam-packed with detailed history of every aspect of rugby
It's a compulsive, must-see for any rugby tragic. Just hard to find online.
For me it asnwered like 100 questions about rugby. Every aspect of the game and its tradition is explored. You're like 'ahh, so that's why we sing the anthem'
It seems that you can watch it in NZ (or with a VPN perhaps)
Or on Kayo
PS: Just a clip from youtube.
If His Ancientness Lee Grant was around he'd proffer Sean Fagan as a more eminent rugby historian, especially the rupture between union and league in Australia in 1907.
Can you post the link please,
Got me stumped why Wimbledon Tennis cant proceed in some form.
You would think its TV ratings would be off the scale, even played in front of no crowd..
You would think singles tennis would satisfy social distancing rules.
The whole world needs a sport fix of some sort
I’d start with the other link I have above for the blood and mud podcast he did with them then switch over to Rugby reloaded.
Separate names with a comma.