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National Tournaments 2014

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Hugie

Hugie

Ted Fahey (11)
I've been thinking along similar lines.

Here's my straw man.
  • Inter district comp to be held on Saturdays i.e. no double dipping with schools. The objective is to increase the number of boys getting mid level training and committment.
  • Inter district to be "private rugby school equivalent". 15 week, program 5 weeks preparation 10 rounds. 25 in a squad, U15s, U16s and U17s.
  • Coaches to be paid. Expect 15 hours a week (9 hours face to face, 6 on organising and talent scouting).
  • Training to be min 3 times a week (2hour sessions) plus game on saturday. Requiring a high level of committment to rugby union from the boys. Those who won't or can't can play local club rugby on Sundays.
Income
Fees $500/boy x 25 $12500-
ARU 5000-
District 5000-
Sponsorship 7500-
Total income 30000-

Expenses
Admin, rego, shorts socks etc $100/boy 2500-
Coach $600wk 15 weeks 9000-
Asst Coach $450/wk 15 weeks 6750-
1/3 physio/strapper 1250-
Transport/Buses 5 away games 6000-
Contigency 4500-
Total 30000-

  • CHS and CCC to draw mainly from this comp. and to run mainly gala days and gala 7s comps within the school system and school time.
  • State team to be drawn from this comp. ie no state championships nor Country championships.
  • The CHS and CCC teachers to be encouraged to become the coaches where a standard can be proven (there are plenty of good enthusiastic CHS and CCC teachers who given a program and some money would do a very good job).
  • This would need a major club rugby recruitment drive to replace more than all the boys drawn into the District comp.
George, I don't think we are too different in our view however this one has a rough costing to it.
 
George Smith

George Smith

Ted Thorn (20)
Hugie said:
I've been thinking along similar lines.

Here's my straw man.
  • Inter district comp to be held on Saturdays i.e. no double dipping with schools. The objective is to increase the number of boys getting mid level training and committment.
  • Inter district to be "private rugby school equivalent". 15 week, program 5 weeks preparation 10 rounds. 25 in a squad, U15s, U16s and U17s.
  • Coaches to be paid. Expect 15 hours a week (9 hours face to face, 6 on organising and talent scouting)
  • CHS and CCC to draw mainly from this comp. and to run mainly gala days and gala 7s comps within the school system and school time.
  • State team to be drawn from this comp. ie no state championships nor Country championships.
  • The CHS and CCC teachers to be encouraged to become the coaches where a standard can be proven (there are plenty of good enthusiastic CHS and CCC teachers who given a program and some money would do a very good job).
  • This would need a major club rugby recruitment drive to replace more than all the boys drawn into the District comp.
George, I don't think we are too different in our view however this one has a rough costing to it.
Click to expand...
agree, the only really difference is:
I was expanding the current District rep program and giving it some ownership. Original idea was floated within MNZ several years ago when 'super teams' were being formed but fell down as it was club based.

If we take the existing District Rep teams for 15-17s (Sydney wide) then allow them to play every Sunday (includes independent schools for 15s & 16s). They play a round robin format (7 rounds). Country would select their top 3 teams for a 6 team playoff in June/July over a single weekend for the State Championship title. ACT & Vic would be invited to play a delayed National Comp against WA, Qld and NSW.

This way we reduce the reliance on separate funding as already part of current program funding. It takes away the need for 'trials' etc.

District teams to be invited. These being the existing 10 of Warringah, Manly, Norths, Gordon, Easts, Randwick, Syd Uni, Wests, Eastwood, Parramatta and Penrith).

On another topic: Unless certain benchmarks are met for the Premiership Clubs they should be 'rationalised'. ie a forced merger or relegation.

The essence here is either maintain "Club health" (performance on the field as well financially) or face rationalisation. The Subbies system forces it through a complex relegation calculation which is the alternative but allowing over 50% of your premiership Clubs to be facing insolvency is not good stewardship by the NSWRU and ARU.
 
George Smith

George Smith

Ted Thorn (20)
The above proposal is based on a "build it and they will come" philosophy. However, I also like the other option but see it as less of a chance of getting it up. This option would be broadly, play your club and school rounds before July holidays (Term 2) and then in Term 3 (Aug-Sep) have a" conference" style play-offs. The weakness here is that it is predominantly school based and would require more resources to get a viable public school program going (Waratah Shield not enough).
 
Hugie

Hugie

Ted Fahey (11)
Largely agree with the basis of your proposals however we differ on one important point, and that is double dipping.

Having watched country/CCC and district rugby over the years I have formed the view that the main difference between the boys in "rugby schools" and non rugby schools in the amount of time training and playing at high levels that "rugby schools" boys get. ie they are not genetically superior by dint of their parents wealth, they just get more/better coaching and more exposure to hard fast rugby.

I believe that the core to expanding this to the other >90% of the states boys is to provide the equivalent through the districts/zones for those that are prepared to commit.

By having the comp. on Saturdays this will provide an almost exact equivalent, and increase the total number of boys training and playing at this level, whilst preserving the traditional Sunday suburban club rugby. It will force boys to choose school or district, league or Union and allow the ARU to put resources to those who are not "rugby schools" boys and are committed to Union.
 
George Smith

George Smith

Ted Thorn (20)
Hugie said:
Largely agree with the basis of your proposals however we differ on one important point, and that is double dipping.

Having watched country/CCC and district rugby over the years I have formed the view that the main difference between the boys in "rugby schools" and non rugby schools in the amount of time training and playing at high levels that "rugby schools" boys get. ie they are not genetically superior by dint of their parents wealth, they just get more/better coaching and more exposure to hard fast rugby.

I believe that the core to expanding this to the other >90% of the states boys is to provide the equivalent through the districts/zones for those that are prepared to commit.

By having the comp. on Saturdays this will provide an almost exact equivalent, and increase the total number of boys training and playing at this level, whilst preserving the traditional Sunday suburban club rugby. It will force boys to choose school or district, league or Union and allow the ARU to put resources to those who are not "rugby schools" boys and are committed to Union.
Click to expand...
yep, it will. These boys do not look for "development" but rather focus intently on the here and now "short term rewards" aspect. Short term goals are cash & tatts versus education, travel and opportunity.
 
Hugh Jarse

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
There are apparently 500 000 Greco-Roman Rugby players in the world, with 400 000 of these in Australia.

There are over 5 million registered senior male rugby players in the world with 200 000 in Australia.

The rest of the world have ignored mungoball in favour of the game played in heaven.

Has your research looked at what they are doing in NZ to keep the cane toad like expansion of fivekick at bay?

What about the other countries junior pathways?
Is there anything that we could learn from their experiences?

By all accounts the game is going gangbusters world wide and we could become the 15 aside equivalent of what Fiji is slowly becoming in the 7's world. As the rest of the world get serious and professional about 7's, they will engineer teams that will beat the wonderfully artistic lassiez faire Fijians hands down.

Broadening the base of the pyramid must be the aim. Forget about the elites and state championships and regional grand finals. That is easy and templated.

We need to simply get more boys and girls playing rugby and rugby 7's. FACT.

The tricky bit is how to do that. That is why a CEO should be paid $2m p.a.
 
southsider

southsider

Arch Winning (36)
Hugie said:
It will force boys to choose school or district, league or Union and allow the ARU to put resources to those who are not "rugby schools" boys and are committed to Union.
Click to expand...

do we really want people choosing between school or club? league or union?
 
Hugie

Hugie

Ted Fahey (11)
Southsider,
At the level of the District comp (that I was talking about), yes.

We should invest limited resources in boys that are committed to union and in boys that aren't getting the training and level of games that the big Private rugby schools provide already i.e. increase the number of boys playing at this level.

For those that want to double dip there is still club rugby which would be played on Sundays, as it is now. Here in the Illawarra there are plenty of boys who play league on Saturday and union on Sunday (tough on the parents). For Sydney's North Shore boys could play school on Saturday and club on Sunday. For the District players (who want to) they could play on Saturday and club on Sunday (I think that that's too much rugby).
 
George Smith

George Smith

Ted Thorn (20)
What is "too much footie"? Yes, 53 games in one season is too much (as occurred several seasons ago in the 15s for many boys) but balancing the amount between 6 comp games (Sydney GPS last year) and/or 23 comp games in club plus the various rep fixtures (~10) needs careful balancing. Put on top of this the various training requirements for each team and it all adds up.

Part of the balancing is whether the administrators wish to create a separate elite pathway. That is, where a large chunk of players just focus on elite rugby being rep games (district and other) as well as separate specific training (NGS etc). For many this concentration smacks the traditional 'club' involvement of rugby but probably resembles the landscape of modern world influenced by professional era of world cups etc.

Playing schools/club one day and elite another day allows for the "traditionalists'" aspects but doing the other enters the world of what is best for the long term grass roots development of the game.

What most sports are grappling with however is what is best for the players' health. Playing enough to be fully developed whilst allowing them to grow as individuals in both athletic and social terms.
 
George Smith

George Smith

Ted Thorn (20)
Hugh Jarse said:
Has your research looked at what they are doing in NZ to keep the cane toad like expansion of fivekick at bay?

What about the other countries junior pathways?
Is there anything that we could learn from their experiences?

The tricky bit is how to do that. That is why a CEO should be paid $2m p.a.
Click to expand...
wouldn't it be great to explore all this as part of a 'project' that could be incorporated into a post grad thesis? ie develop a hypothesis and then research and argue the various options.
 
southsider

southsider

Arch Winning (36)
Hugie said:
Southsider,
At the level of the District comp (that I was talking about), yes.

We should invest limited resources in boys that are committed to union and in boys that aren't getting the training and level of games that the big Private rugby schools provide already i.e. increase the number of boys playing at this level.

For those that want to double dip there is still club rugby which would be played on Sundays, as it is now. Here in the Illawarra there are plenty of boys who play league on Saturday and union on Sunday (tough on the parents). For Sydney's North Shore boys could play school on Saturday and club on Sunday. For the District players (who want to) they could play on Saturday and club on Sunday (I think that that's too much rugby).
Click to expand...

Its not really about double dipping, i was a gps boy so was made to play for my school which i hated doing, while i loved playing for my club team and my district. In your scenario i wouldnt be able to play for my district anymore...not very fair.

and why would you make kids choose between league and union? You will kill many districts by doing this. Most players in the south and west of sydney play both and by making them choose one or the other your putting yourself in a position you cant win. The benefits and incentives on playing junior rep league is way more than union.

sorry i think its a terribly flawed idea. And as someone else mentioned what really can be defined as "too much football"?
 
Hugh Jarse

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
When you say NSWRU has 3 full timers, I assume this is for everything that is NSW RU, not just Community Rugby.

What about part timers, short term contracts, consultants and unpaid interns? Do you have any insight into these numbers?

Many years ago, I once calculated the donation to ARU that the Junior club I was associated with made in terms of volunteer labour for coaches, managers, administrators, BBQ and canteen workers, ground marshals and referees etc. Using an assumed rate of $40 per hour for labour (try and get that from any Labour hire mob!), the final figure I came up with was in the hundreds of thousands.

Multiply that by all the junior village clubs and then you end up with some scary figures of donations from the grass roots to the ARU to keep the game we love going.
 
Hugh Jarse

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
With all the focus on Junior Gold Cup for U15 and U17, is there any news on what the NSW Juniors are planning to do with the Sydney JRU vs Country JRU (U14-U17s) and NSW JRU vs anyone in U14-U17?

Have the last rites finally been given to the Australian JRU?
 
Gary Owen III

Gary Owen III

Syd Malcolm (24)
Hugh Jarse said:
With all the focus on Junior Gold Cup for U15 and U17, is there any news on what the NSW Juniors are planning to do with the Sydney JRU vs Country JRU (U14-U17s) and NSW JRU vs anyone in U14-U17?

Have the last rites finally been given to the Australian JRU?
Click to expand...

NSWJRU and SJRU have been advertising for coaches for regional, Sydney (incl an U18 team) and NSW teams since before Christmas. So this would imply that the traditional pathway is still on the plate for 2014.

But I have heard that QJRU are not selection a State team this year - so it will be NSW vs ACT only again i'd say.
 
Gary Owen III

Gary Owen III

Syd Malcolm (24)

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  • SJRU & NSWJRU Application form for Rep Rugby Coaches 2014.pdf
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