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Nerdishness and Solar power

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Out of curiousity, how much did the PowerWall set you back. Both my brother and I are looking to install panels at our places and are interested in using it.


With a 5kW system (20 panels), the battery, inverter and the full shebang, installed was $15,990. A few people gasp at that, but the panels and inverter are good quality, with micro-inverters on each panel which adds to efficiency - in basic terms:

When you have a system without the micro-inverters, if part of the array goes down (e.g. is in shade or has a failure) then it basically reduces the efficiency of the whole array. With micro-inverters, each panel is its own master, but it adds a little to the cost.

Readup on micro-inverters here: http://energyinformative.org/are-solar-micro-inverters-better-than-central-inverters/


So, when you see online specials for 5kW systems that are like $7K, its not that the PowerWall by itself is $9K installed, its that the apples aren't apples in terms of the equipment quality there.

On top of that, keep in mind the warranties I'm getting as part of this deal:

Powerwall - 10 years
Panels - 25 years
Workmanship - 12 years

I'll check the inverter warranty but pretty sure its minimum 5 years.
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
With a 5kW system (20 panels), the battery, inverter and the full shebang, installed was $15,990. A few people gasp at that, but the panels and inverter are good quality, with micro-inverters on each panel which adds to efficiency - in basic terms:

When you have a system without the micro-inverters, if part of the array goes down (e.g. is in shade or has a failure) then it basically reduces the efficiency of the whole array. With micro-inverters, each panel is its own master, but it adds a little to the cost.

Readup on micro-inverters here: http://energyinformative.org/are-solar-micro-inverters-better-than-central-inverters/


So, when you see online specials for 5kW systems that are like $7K, its not that the PowerWall by itself is $9K installed, its that the apples aren't apples in terms of the equipment quality there.

On top of that, keep in mind the warranties I'm getting as part of this deal:

Powerwall - 10 years
Panels - 25 years
Workmanship - 12 years

I'll check the inverter warranty but pretty sure its minimum 5 years.


Cheers. That price isn't too deterring. Considering what it costs to run my house I would make that back fairly comfortably.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
That's what the bills say. The pool pump does raise it a little during summer, along with the air con. Air con also affects it in winter. But as many devices as possible are battery operated, so I'm drawing small wattage for e.g. vacuum cleaner instead of 1200+ at a time.


Were your numbers on top of what the solar was providing already (pre Powerwall)? I.e. amounts you were actually drawing off the grid.

I don't have gas either so cooking and hot water heater is electricity too.
 

terry j

Ron Walden (29)
thanks for the answer before pfitzy

you just gave your price, so I can assume it was not part of the big budget deal from a few years ago? As one who pays next to no interest in govt that deal missed me completely.

Where this is going, is that I guess even now (without big govt rebates) this solar stuff can still provide a good value proposition.

Ie, 'not too late' even if the deal is gone.

Which season is the one for you to use most power, summer or winter.

Sadly, mine would be winter which is not good from a solar perspective.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
I don't have gas either so cooking and hot water heater is electricity too.

Heating water is a massive arse when you read the science of it - comes down to the specific heat capacity (that's a link). Water has a higher specific heat than nearly all metals, and it basically refers to the amount of energy required to raise the temperature of something by one degree celcius.

Gas rocks - requires the same amount of energy in cosmic terms to boil water, but setting things on fire seems to work better than asking metal to heat them up.




Which season is the one for you to use most power, summer or winter.

Sadly, mine would be winter which is not good from a solar perspective.


Looking at my last round of bills, purely on usage rather than pricing:

16 Sep - 16 Dec 2015: 1917kWh = 20.83 per diem on 92 days
28 Jun - 15 Sep 2015: 1806kWh = 22.575 per diem on 80 days
21 Mar - 27 Jun 2015: 1777kWh = 17.949 per diem on 99 days
19 Dec 2014 - 20 mar 2015: 2517kWh = 27.35 per diem on 92 days

For the 363 day year of billing, that averages 22 per day. Slight underestimation on my part, but insignificant to the big spreadsheet I put together before making this decision.

Therefore, peak summer is my weak point due to a wife who can't tolerate anything above 21C (except in winter when she can't tolerate anything below 23C ;) ) and a pool pump that was highly inefficient.

In a way, that is good news, because the solar will take the load, the habits will be adjusted, and the pool pump has been replaced with something more efficient. So it can run 8 hours per day for free. When swimming season is over, I'll turn that down to 1-2 hours a day to keep the equipment turning over, and I don't give a shit what the pool store says ;)

In terms of rebates: the current round of rebates for installing the solar are built into that price, so without that I'd have paid closer to $20K. I'm happy to take the subsidy, despite what all the twats on The Australian said about my privileged ability to pay for a system up front would do to the poor people, by forcing providers to up prices. I look at it this way: I pay my taxes, and I'm not a tax-neutral proposition like "the poor people", and help take the heat out of the market that seeks to rip everyone off through poorly-thought-out projects like $45B in poles and wires.

You can sell back excess power to your energy provider for "x" cents per kWh (kilowatt hour), known as the "feed-in tariff". You can do this even without the battery (but I'm pursuing the Reposit model of market sale).

Energy Australia (my current lot) are paying 10 cents per kWh from memory, but selling it to people for 23.5c! I know guys at work who were on the old scheme, getting paid 40c or even 60c per kWh when the government had a boner for solar subsidies. That ends next year, and at the time their 1.5-2.1kW panels cost them close to $10K. They look at what I've got and agree its a bargain, given the amount of power I can generate, particularly as I can use it even after the sun pisses off.

Yesterday, despite an mildly overcast Sydney day, I generated 22kWh. Today, despite that fucking huge storm that rolled through, I generated 21kWh. A bloke who lives up at Wisemans Ferry behind a ruddy great hill said his 4kW system (so 80% capacity of mine) generated 30kWh one day!

So for me, its all gravy. The wife is getting on board with this, looking to maximise our battery recharge, minimise the spend, and shorten the ROI.

Primarily, the bulk of the dynamic running cost of our household is electricity on a quarterly basis. The mortgage is bigger, sure, but I get unlimited use of the house. Our gas bill is only about $150 per quarter, and I'm looking for a better price there, too. Water isn't much more. Rates are set and inescapable.


Cheers. That price isn't too deterring. Considering what it costs to run my house I would make that back fairly comfortably.


Yeah its kind of an easy decision. I guess the up-front cost scares people off, and the thought of investing in something for 8-10 years. The irony is that some people who shy away from this might spend the cost of my system in three years on booze, cigarettes, poker machines, or holidays.

I don't have ANY other investments. No property, no shares. That might come later, but for right now I've got to future-proof my running costs.

The variable I keep in mind for all my calculations is not yet understanding when we use most of our power, and this is important for the battery setup: I can extend my solar power into darkness, and know that if I can get the solar panels to generate 16-25kW per day depending on the season, I'll cover the vast majority of my known usage given the patterns I've identified in this house (2 years last December) to date.

Its the last maybe 15% I need to get a feel for.

What is going to burn the most, and what time of day will it happen?

Should I run the heat/air con on low for most of the day off the panels, or let the power sell out during the day, and burst the air con at night to let the battery take the strain?

Can the battery get us through until the morning in most circumstances, or will I be pulling grid for breakfast?

Should I forgo using the ducted for heating, and invest in a gas heater to cut electricity costs? Will the wife be able to handle that? :) What is the ROI on the gas heater, relative to electricity?

These questions are all to be answered. I have a measure of confidence that the ability to resell power out of the battery in high generation times (Reposit) will offset any grid power I have to buy back (including connection fees).

But its not a simple analysis unless you've already got a smart-meter that can track back your usage to time-of-day (I don't).

Time will tell.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
No, wait - the energy feed-in tariff with Energy Australia is 5.1c per kWh.

So FUCK those guys.
 

boyo

Mark Ella (57)
Why did you site the Powerwall outside and not in your garage (presumably the batteries would suffer in extremes of temperature)?
 

Dismal Pillock

Simon Poidevin (60)
think i can see where this is going.....

elpfitzo.jpg
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Why did you site the Powerwall outside and not in your garage (presumably the batteries would suffer in extremes of temperature)?


The solar company recommended brick mounting, and my garage interior is pretty much all stud walls, so that was one thing.

When I saw the bracket mount for the PowerWall, that made sense - its kind of a classic "H" shape turned on its side, and is probably more suitable for a large surface area fitting where you're not fussy about finding timber to drill into. Also as the battery weighs 95kg you want to distribute load.

My garage door faces west, so in summer the garage traps heat worse than the exterior of the house e.g. I put a new network switch into the cabinet a couple of weeks ago, located in the garage, and its fan has been running from 2PM-sundown lately. In the morning the fan doesn't need to run - its hot enough in there that I'm considering getting the network cabinet moved somewhere else, but its a big bastard...

Also, if you park a car in there and shut the garage door, it builds up even more heat. If you leave the door open, the sun is about as bad. No win there.

The location of the Powerwall is on the south side ("dead boundary") so except for about 2 hours in the morning during the peak weeks in summer, it is in shade - and so in the hottest part of the day, there is no direct light on it. Definitely the cooler part of the house.

And, because its next to the inverter and battery control box, it is sort of out of the way. Right outside the laundry door of course, so I can still gaze upon it when I want to ;) and I even put some pavers down there so people who come to look at it weren't tracking gravel back into the house :D
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Storm has passed, but the sunlight is back a little, pushing power generation to nearly 1kW at the moment - today was the first time the system has generated over 24kW (new high score!) so I am mildly chuffed.

Now I need a clear, 25C day in the next couple of weeks to see what the maximum gen is. If I averaged 4kW across the main generating hours, I'll hit 30kWh for the day with relative ease.

This shit rocks. Just a shame my meters haven't been changed across so I can grab this minimal tariff :(
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Yesterday a new high score! 25kWh generated off the panels. Once the finalise the battery installation I'll be a step closer to free power.

While I'm effectively blogging this shit:

You'd think, running a big engine and stuff, that your plug-in vacuum cleaner (rated between 1200-1600W or more these days) would suck a big amount of power. And yeah, if you take 30 minutes to vacuum your house, a 1600W vac will effectively kill 0.8kWh

But our kettle, which is one of those cordless/base ones, and not exactly new, draws 2400W.

Its only going for a couple of minutes at a time, but that is putting a major dent in your solar panel array - basically draining half of what mine puts out at peak (5kW = 5000W)

So today, I might look for something else, or float the idea of boiling with gas, and seeing what that costs me in kJ/BTU.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
Toasters draw a fair bit too. I remember a great video from not long ago of a champion track cyclist with legs like the Hulk half-killing himself to toast a slice of bread.
 

Teh Other Dave

Alan Cameron (40)
I guess any appliance that heats water is going to use a fair amount of power, given the high specific heat of water (thus why it makes a good coolant). But a 1200W toaster. I didn't think they were so powerful. What a time to be alive.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
The location of the Powerwall is on the south side ("dead boundary") so except for about 2 hours in the morning during the peak weeks in summer, it is in shade - and so in the hottest part of the day, there is no direct light on it. Definitely the cooler part of the house.


Is it true that you've bought a baby monitor with video so you can keep a watchful eye on your Powerwall at all times?
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Picked up a variable-temp kettle yesterday - has temperature ranges at 60C (green tea) through 70C (white tea) through 90C (coffee) and 100C (black tea)

Power range is 2000-2400W. Still not ideal, but its got LED lights on it to tell you how hot it is :D

Same as the toaster - the lights cycle through depending how close it is to ready.


Is it true that you've bought a baby monitor with video so you can keep a watchful eye on your Powerwall at all times?


Baby monitor? I've been on eBay looking at 1080HD security cameras!

The good thing is, as King of the Nerds, I have a PoE* switch and a lot of cameras (and my ceiling-mounted wifi) can run off it without extra power points.



* Power over Ethernet
 

Dismal Pillock

Simon Poidevin (60)

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Fake? How then can I look at it, one-handed, while in the disabled bathroom at work with my laptop? o_O


And on the roof is ridiculous - you'll fade the paint.



Yesterday generated 29.54kWh - so that covers my average use from last year + 4kWh.

Still a few tweaks to make to the behaviours e.g. make sure the iron only runs during the day when I do the kids uniforms of a Sunday, make sure only one high-draw piece of equipment is running at a time (iron OR toaster OR kettle OR dryer etc)

Would be nice if they could make a battery-based kettle/toaster/iron, that charges to capacity, can get through ten minutes's work, then recharge at a lower wattage.
 
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