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NSW AAGPS Rugby 2014

Who will win...


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Snort

Nev Cottrell (35)
A couple of years back, I discussed on this site the question of how to handle the problem of the GPS competition. My proposal then was that, if you were starting from scratch, you'd build a conference system. That system wouldn't be based upon how strong this year's 1st XV is, but on a variety of factors, the most important of which would be the number of teams in a school's Rugby programme, and the school's aspirations for its Rugby programme. So, let's say you're a school with six teams in each age group, and aspirations to produce players who will bcome professionals, and (to that end) an active recruitment policy, then you can go off and compete with the big boys. If you have a lot of teams but you think recruitment is the devil's own work, and you can't match the stronger schools without it, you go to the next conference. If you think that Rugby is a healthy, character-building exercise that boys should stop playing once they start studying to be doctors, you go into the equivalent of the Ivy League. I'm being flippant, of course, but the idea is to get people playing against each other who have similar ideas about what Rugby should be at school level. In 1899, that was what happened when Scots played Shore. Not this year.

Of course, it wouldn't be a perfect system. Of course, you can pick holes in the idea. More to the point, it won't happen, not in our lifetimes, because tradition binds the GPS to a model which has ceased to serve its purpose. Look, Shore is a great Rugby school. Michael Hawker, Mick Mathers, Phil waugh, David Codey, Al Baxter... how many Wallabies? And they've lost, what? A dozen or more GPS 1st XV games on the trot. That's not a "cycle", it's a philosophy playing itself out.

Actually, there is a conference system of sorts in place already - the GPS competition has two tiers within it. Maybe one day Shore and someone else will drop down to the lower tier, and GPS can remain in its own little world, two four-team competitions.

Some people seem to think the answer is to ban recruitment. But (without wishing to veer off onto that other thread), sports scholarships are banned already, and look how well that works. So I rather doubt that it's the answer.

It would be nice to see the GPS Headmasters get together and show some ledership on this. I'm not holding my breath, though.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
. So, let's say you're a school with six teams in each age group, and aspirations to produce players who will bcome professionals, and (to that end) an active recruitment policy, then you can go off and compete with the big boys.

Trouble is, are there that many schools which fit into this category? A 1, 2 or 3 school competition of "big boys" would become a tad repetitive.:)
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Snort,
The changes may be closer than you think.
The current system ends after 2015.
The "big boarding schools" - who have been driving the GPS bus for 50+ years - do not want it to continue.
Options are being explored and there is a will to change things in a number of quarters but the hearts and minds of others need to follow.
The crumbs are scattered through the posts of the last few days.
 

Snort

Nev Cottrell (35)
Trouble is, are there that many schools which fit into this category? A 1, 2 or 3 school competition of "big boys" would become a tad repetitive.:)

Agreed, that's an obvious issue. But isn't that already happening, de facto, in the GPS?
 

Snort

Nev Cottrell (35)
Snort,
The changes may be closer than you think.
The current system ends after 2015.
The "big boarding schools" - who have been driving the GPS bus for 50+ years - do not want it to continue.
Options are being explored and there is a will to change things in a number of quarters but the hearts and minds of others need to follow.
The crumbs are scattered through the posts of the last few days.

Well, let's see. My impression is that everyone can see that something needs to change but there's no consensus on the answer and an unwillingness to reject tradition. I hope I'm wrong.
 

Brian Westlake

Arch Winning (36)
I think I've made my allegiances somewhat clear over the course of my tenure on this forum - I'll let you work it out from previous posts if you're yet to already. To cut through the web of accusation and riddle your comment spun, I don't go to one of those "scholarship heavy", "pump money into rugby" sorts of GPS schools - although then again that is dependent on your interpretation. From where I sit, and that's at a position close to the action, it's clear to me that such a characterisation is false.



It seems that instead of assessing the merits of my model you're assessing the merits of the American college football system. At no stage have I called for some sort of mass scholarship system. At no stage have I advocated for international broadcasting rights. At no stage have I suggested anything that would infer increased professionalism. All of this is what you WANT to hear, because you're relying on a straw man style argument to further a broken status quo.

I used the example of the NCAA as an aside, and I regret doing it now given the song and dance you've made over it. The only real similarities are the existence of multiple divisions and an internal conference system - there's no suggestion that we become the NCAA. Why you base your argument on it is beyond me.



Again, contingent on the fact that I go to a school that is overly professional, which I believe to be false.



Again, nitpicking/strawmanning for the sake of convenience. The overall point was that schools are willing to allow arbitrary distinctions in the case of certain activities and pursuits. If it's the case that it's "played solely for its educational and enjoyment value", then surely we must now prevent schools from taking other activities too seriously, lest the kids might actually want to win a competition. It's either the case that rugby has no competitive or non-educational value, then surely the same applies to every other aspect of school life.

The fact is, that in various areas schools are extremely competitive, and they have a right to chose where they put their eggs, so long as they play by the rules. To deny this is idealistic IS, and unfortunately it's no longer 1950 - kids are specialising now, for better or worse, and there's little anyone can do about it.
Let's not limit this to rugby - Grammar (and many other schools) do this in their approach to academia, music, debating and other areas, and I have a huge amount of respect for them for doing so The point is, schools are competitive in various areas, so why limit the extent to which they can engage with Rugby based on what's convenient for a minority?



Enough that it's a legitimate career option in the same way that any other path is. And it's somewhat weird that you'd base your argument on the status quo - like, you're right, not that many people in absolute/relative terms do make a career from it - that's part of the problem, we have a system that isn't working.

At the end of the day, I think we agree to some extent. You said "The aim must be to get every boy a competitive game", and that's exactly what I think!

I believe that it would be far better for everyone involved that schools like Grammar and High get a decent game of rugby against schools that have a similar interest and skill level in Rugby, as opposed to pulling everyone else down and forcing them to limit their programs for the sake of an antiquated approach.
I decided not to prune your distribe, but I honestly think that the hard earned money that I forked out for my sons was for education!!!!!


I am going to let you in on a little secret here aka...


MORE people graduate as Orthopaedic Surgeons each year than get recruited in to the Wallabies.
Think about that. It night make you study just that little bit more
 

Snort

Nev Cottrell (35)
I decided not to prune your distribe, but I honestly think that the hard earned money that I forked out for my sons was for education!!!!!


I am going to let you in on a little secret here aka.


MORE people graduate as Orthopaedic Surgeons each year than get recruited in to the Wallabies.
Think about that. It night make you study just that little bit more


Yes, but... You don't set up a Rugby competition with the aim of producing the best orthopaedic surgeons. It's not a zero-sum-game: in recent years, my old school has turned out a Wallaby and a whole bunch of medical students. One of my contemporaries has just completed his orthopaedic training after playing several seasons of First Grade Rugby. So I'm not sure why a school can't provide some of its boys with one pathway, and others with a different one.
 

sidesteppa

Watty Friend (18)
MORE people graduate as Orthopaedic Surgeons each year ..


Please don't wish this on any kid, most people would rather have a lobotomy.
But yes there are several well represented doctors [past and present] in the uk and australia e.g. the British Lions centre Roberts. Sporting talent should be encouraged alongside academia [look at Soloman, aussie 400m athlete who is training in the US whilst studying medicine]. A good school gives an all-round education but allows [coaches & encourages] talent to develop [be it sport or acting or whatever]. If the individual decides to go to the next level and fails or it finishes [eg. injury, age] then the education allows a second career [rather than pulling beers in a pub].
 

Jim Belshaw

Bob Loudon (25)
I think it would be a sad day and a retrograde step for both rugby and the GPS to dispense with the 3rds and thus exclude TAS, SGS and SHS from meanigful competition.


Thanks, QH. Continuing to think about all this, I don't think that its going to happen despite the problems of split rounds. Even if the thirds comp this year is not as good as I expect, and I think that it's going to be a cracker, the demographic stats on number of teams etc by school quoted in various posts seem to mean that the bigger rugby schools actually need the minnows just to ensure that their boys in lower grades can get a game. Alternatively, they cut the number of rugby teams and divert the boys to soccer.

I keep coming back to those remarkable Joey's numbers. It appears that on Saturday some SJC teams actually didn't get a game despite the presence of such a large number of TAS teams. Take TAS out, and a third or so of teams might not have got a game.
 

Brian Westlake

Arch Winning (36)
MORE people graduate as Orthopaedic Surgeons each year ..


Please don't wish this on any kid, most people would rather have a lobotomy.
But yes there are several well represented doctors [past and present] in the uk and australia e.g. the British Lions centre Roberts. Sporting talent should be encouraged alongside academia [look at Soloman, aussie 400m athlete who is training in the US whilst studying medicine]. A good school gives an all-round education but allows [coaches & encourages] talent to develop [be it sport or acting or whatever]. If the individual decides to go to the next level and fails or it finishes [eg. injury, age] then the education allows a second career [rather than pulling beers in a pub].
Encouraged, Yes. Not the primary focus of being in some "Super team"
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
I keep coming back to those remarkable Joey's numbers. It appears that on Saturday some SJC teams actually didn't get a game despite the presence of such a large number of TAS teams. Take TAS out, and a third or so of teams might not have got a game.

Its a bloody good point but I'm told that SJC, in particular, are opposed to the present arrangement continuing because it splits their boys and creates logistical issues for getting the 3rds back to Hunters Hill to standby for 2nds.
Schools do not like "logistical issues" and it seems not to matter that their 3rds get treated like royalty with an afternoon tea and speeches!
 

Jim Belshaw

Bob Loudon (25)
Oh dear IS. That's really depressing. It's actually quite stupid. Name the boys in reserves. No one can have a total team standing by.

It reinforces an earlier point I made though. A pox on all their houses. I will enjoy this year as though it may be the last then, if that proves to be the case, I will walk away.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Oh dear IS. That's really depressing. It's actually quite stupid. Name the boys in reserves. No one can have a total team standing by.

It reinforces an earlier point I made though. A pox on all their houses. I will enjoy this year as though it may be the last then, if that proves to be the case, I will walk away.

No - there's one more after this: 2015.
Work is being done behind the scenes to address the problems but they do not necessarily involve solutions inside the present framework.
 

Gregor

Ward Prentice (10)
If you look at the overall games played between Shore and Scots last weekend it looks like a pretty even contest. By this I mean of the 22 games played against Shore, Scots won 13 and of course Shore won 9.
In the Opens as stated Scots only won 1 game from 5 played.
Under 16's was a clean sweep for Scots.
Under 15's won the 15A's and lost the other two games. Not too bad given the number of students that were not available as they had left for Glengarry.
Under 14's, Scots won 3 of their 4 games.
Under 13's Scots won 3 of their 5 games.
 

HeresToRugby

Chris McKivat (8)
Joeys v Riverview - Riverview were too good on the day. However, having witnessed Scots in the first round, they will need to improve massively to get even close to the men in gold. I thought the View's big forwards really started to tire towards the end so I wouldn't read into too much that they may have switched off. Riverview had the breeze in the second half so yes at one stage 23-0 could have looked like 50-0 but Joeys fought hard particularly through young Tom Leaver who was brilliant on debut & Margan who again was impressive.

Joeys actually blew 2 tries in the last 10 minutes by not using the overlap but that said Riverview thoroughly deserved their win.

Let's hope for the sake of the competition that the Scots v Riverview games are close.
 
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