Pick Rocky at 8

[waratahjesus]

are we a bit rose coloured when it comes to the totai & willy o eras?
palu gets a hard time about his work rate yet it really isnt all that bad. when he gets shut down by opposition teams he gets alot of flack for dissapearing while players in other positions seem to be able to bandy the "didnt get the chance to show what i have" excuse around.

was totai really as good as we remember him to be?

 

[Biffo]

was Toutai really as good as we remember him to be?

He was very good indeed, as were Willie O and Owen Finegan. I mention those two to bring together three outstanding Wallabies who got a lot of stick from the unknowing early in their careers.

All three were big and talented blokes who stood out and in their young days, were penalty magnets and perceived by many to be lazy - the "going missing", "soft" and "doesn't fancy the hard stuff" labels were bandied about with abandon. Each of the four got better with experience but, more importantly, changed very much as his body matured. They all became seriously hard men and their work rates and consistency lifted. Didn't, however, satisfy many of the critics who were unable to see the progression from talented but raw and immature to talented, hard, smart and bloody effective.

The same errors of judgement are being made now by many in the cases of Rocky and Palu. Both are a long way down (up?) the track followed by Willie O, Finegan and Kefu.

 

[Scotty]

Palu may still be getting better, but at the moment it is a very hard comparison to make to Willie O or Kefu. Both those players could lay claim to the mantle of world best 8 at some time during their careers whereas Palu probably has at least 5 guys in front of him at the moment.

I guess time will tell.

PS I don't think Rocky should be picked at 8.

 

[Cutter]

was Toutai really as good as we remember him to be?

He was very good indeed, as were Willie O and Owen Finegan. I mention those two to bring together three outstanding Wallabies who got a lot of stick from the unknowing early in their careers.

All three were big and talented blokes who stood out and in their young days, were penalty magnets and perceived by many to be lazy - the "going missing", "soft" and "doesn't fancy the hard stuff" labels were bandied about with abandon. Each of the four got better with experience but, more importantly, changed very much as his body matured. They all became seriously hard men and their work rates and consistency lifted. Didn't, however, satisfy many of the critics who were unable to see the progression from talented but raw and immature to talented, hard, smart and bloody effective.

The same errors of judgement are being made now by many in the cases of Rocky and Palu. Both are a long way down (up?) the track followed by Willie O, Finegan and Kefu.

Biffo who is the fourth?

I take issue with the Willie O point in particular. He wasnt a penalty magnet early in his career and nor did he have a poor workrate. Think 91 RWC for example when he played 6. Later, following a few knee injuries, he became bigger and his workrate dropped. However by that stage he was mostly used by the Tahs and, I think, the Wallabies, as an impact player off the bench at which he was very effective. At this stage of his career, even in club games, he could go missing for a while.

Finegan was a penalty magnet up until the last time he pulled off his boots. He gave away a number of memorable penalties including the one against SA in the 99 RWC semi final to allow them the penalty to pull 3 clear (which, if I recall correctly, Larkham levelled with his famous droppy). Finegan was niggly, effective at trucking it up, good on the fringes and tough, but he didnt have the workrate of, for example, Cockbain which was why Cockbain was preferred to him so often.

Kefu had a good workrate I thought and didnt give away more than his fair share of penalties. He was a good backrower but not a great one and not a great no. 8.

I dont think Palu has a low work rate. However, he isnt in the team for his workrate. Brown does that well. He Palu is in the team for his effectiveness at the tackle (ie big hits) and in ball carrying (line busts and drawing defenders). His workrate isnt as high as Brown's (who I categorise as busy) and so unless he brings the big tackling and line busts (as well as the workrate) he doesnt add the value he needs.

I dont particularly have a problem with Elsom's workrate either. What I have argued in the past is that he is sometimes not that effective when he gets there (I think the same thing of the over rated Schalk Burger). Elsom works hard but doesnt work effectively which means that, for example, Mumm, who works hard and effectively, may be a better option. However, Elsom can be more dynamic than Mumm and, all other things being equal, is the better option. But, in this case, all other things being equal means a high and effective work rate from Elsom.

Elsom has been a penalty magnet in the past but appears to have controlled that over the last couple of seasons. I agree with Scotty that Elsom isnt an 8.

 

[RugbyReg]

I somewhat agree with tahjesus, about Kefu at least.

I think he is somewhat over rated. Didn't really show his abilities for the Wallabies until the end of season tour in 98 (scored a great try from the back of the scrum v the Frogs which I reckon gave him some belief in himself). Had a great 99RWC despite being suspended for a few games. In 2000 he was benched for Jim Williams quite often. Had a decent series v the Lions. And then was in decline since then, with the Eales test try a stand out.

Melon is another I think is remembered more fondly than I think he deserves. He was only really a first choice player for that Lions year in 01 correct?

Timmy Gavin is the man grossly overlooked when talk of great Wallaby 8s starts. He's the best I have seen, followed by Bird Tuynman. Kef is probably next with Palu not too far behind.

Willie O is probably the best 6/blindside I have seen for the Wallabies. His physicality was crucial for that Wallaby team at the time. Fantastic player.

 

[Biffo]

I dont particularly have a problem with Elsom's workrate either. What I have argued in the past is that he is sometimes not that effective when he gets there (I think the same thing of the over rated Schalk Burger). Elsom works hard but doesnt work effectively

I have to disagree. I wrote elsewhere that I question Rocky's NH form because the pace there is very slow and he gets to the breakdown easily and almost always. He has improved his effectiveness, after arrival, dramatically while in Ireland. I wondered whether he would be as effective in a "SH" type game where the back rows arrive early, fast and with strength and serious intent - a la the Bulls last Saturday.

 

[waratahjesus]

"I dont think Palu has a low work rate. However, he isnt in the team for his workrate. Brown does that well. He is in the team for his effectiveness at the tackle (ie big hits) and in ball carrying (line busts and drawing defenders). His workrate isnt as high as Brown's (who I categorise as busy) and so unless he brings the big tackling and line busts (as well as the workrate) he doesnt add the value he needs. "
- biffo

sorry for asking, but can someone please explain just exactly what an "effective" tackle is?
to say brown is in the team for "big hits" is a bit of a joke when Palu flattens people and often turns games with his defence.
i know what you mean about Brown being busy, but he is far more less affective for his extra touches. most of his line breaks come in the nathan sharpe or george smith couple of people wide space that if they left the gap for a winger would probably mean an extra 30 metres or a try.

i enjoy watching Brown and understand the mongral factor but he just seems like he isnt an 8 to me, he seems like a bit of a utility back rower (a good one) but not really australias 8,

i wouldnt mind seeing rocky have a run there, if Palu is out for longer, a mumm, smith, rocky back row would make me very happy!

 

[Cutter]

Actually I meant that Palu is in the team for his big hits and line busts not Brown. Brown is there for being busy and a high workrate. I will edit.

 

[Cutter]

i enjoy watching Brown and understand the mongral factor but he just seems like he isnt an 8 to me, he seems like a bit of a utility back rower (a good one) but not really australias 8,

i wouldnt mind seeing rocky have a run there, if Palu is out for longer, a mumm, smith, rocky back row would make me very happy!

I've said it before (including in this thread), but no. 8 is a specialist position. You cant just pick blokes who have the right skillset and drop them in there. History is littered with failed experimental blindside flankers who are trialled at no.8. Most recently, last season, the ABs tried Kaino. Result - failure. When they switched back to Rodders at 8 and Kaino at 6, the backrow balance was restored. The 91 RWC pool matches were used to try to find a replacement No.8 after Tim Gavin was injured just prior to the tour. Eales, Willie O and Coker were all used there before Coker was settled on as the best option. Coker had the most experience at 8 but wasnt necessarily the most skilful of the three.

The reason that Hoiles, Palu, Brown and even Houston keep getting picked in teams at 8 is because they have, to a lesser or greater degree, specialist skills. Some of those skills are transferable to other positions, usually 6, but some are specific. Similarly, the reason Phil Waugh, Elsom, Mumm, Chapman and others arent used at 8 is because they dont have the additional skills required of an 8.

I think Elsom would be rubbish at 8. Given a season or two he might get used to it but initially he would deliver bad ball to Burgess and be positionally unaware. He would play like a 6.

 

[Biffo]

I think Elsom would be rubbish at 8.

ditto

 

[Spook]

He has played pretty well for Leinster at 8...

 

[Scotty]

If we want to pick a guy out of position to play 8, and if Dean's theory about the new laws comes to fruition, then Smith is the closest in skill set. Particularly when it comes to delivering good ball at the back of the scrum (I thought one of Kefu's best abilities was delivery decent ball no matter how the scrum faired).

 

[Scarfman]

I don't agree that 8 is a specialist position. I believe that it is all about backrow balance.

In what way is Dallaglio like Zinzan Brooke? Similarly, at 6, in what way is Jerry Collins like Reuben Thorne?

Backrow skills / jobs:

- fast to the break down, fetch the ball
- tackling
- get over the gain line
- run the ball from the back of the scrum
- more tackling
- jump in the lineout
- link with the backs
- did i mention tackling?
- a bit of scrummaging, too

But I would pick TPN at 2 and get someone else to throw the ball in, so maybe that's not your style.

 

[formeropenside]

8 needs serious scrummaging work, and also has the issue with ball control at the back of the scrum, which is not that hard as a rule. A stable scrum helps though, as well as a flanker who will mess with the opposition halfback on the way through.

8 is usually a ball runner, with 6 a punishing defender. Both should be lineout options to some extent, although only one need be tall timber.

7 is a fetcher

no forward should ever link with the backs. In fact, a forward has failed at his primary task if he lets the halfback have the ball from a scrum, ruck or maul.

 

[Scarfman]

Actually there is another job which got a bit lost in my list:

- rucking / counter rucking

So, you might be 2nd man there, so you hit the fucker as hard as you can, he's just begging for it.

 

[fatprop]

Elsom
Smith
Palu

Will do me at 8, Palu topped the S14 in offloads while taking a load of stopping and does great in defence.

Brown is the perfect backrower for the bench.

 

[Cutter]

I don't agree that 8 is a specialist position. I believe that it is all about backrow balance.

In what way is Dallaglio like Zinzan Brooke? Similarly, at 6, in what way is Jerry Collins like Reuben Thorne?

Backrow skills / jobs:

- fast to the break down, fetch the ball
- tackling
- get over the gain line
- run the ball from the back of the scrum
- more tackling
- jump in the lineout
- link with the backs
- did i mention tackling?
- a bit of scrummaging, too

But I would pick TPN at 2 and get someone else to throw the ball in, so maybe that's not your style.

Said like a true back. Players dont need to be alike to have the same skills. In what way was Nick Farr-Jones like George Gregan? The question is irrelevant.

As fos says, the skills a no.8 requires to be a good no.8 (not a good backrower) are discrete and you only notice if they arent there.

 

[disco]

Disco, where did you get that classic Martin Johnson quote?

Biffo,
It's from the Lions Tour 2001 DVD I can loan it to you when Noddy is finished with it.

 

[Scarfman]

Said like a true back. Players dont need to be alike to have the same skills.

Mate, those players don't have the same skills.

 

[Biffo]

Disco, where did you get that classic Martin Johnson quote?

Biffo,
It's from the Lions Tour 2001 DVD I can loan it to you when Noddy is finished with it.

You'd have to courier it to me. If you could do that, I'd be more than happy to pay the courier. Thanks muchly.