Quade vs Kurtley

[Scarfman]

Just over a year ago, Quade couldn't get ahead of Lucas for the Aces. Meanwhile, Kurtley was the star of the show.

In the 2008 S14 Kurtley played well enough to show that he was settling down in the role, gaining strength in some areas, and becoming a less shithouse tackler, and learning to control a game at that level. Quade - to my eyes anyway - had a very flaky S14 and looked like he might never move up to the next level.

I thought KB (Kurtley Beale) was unlucky to miss out on the tour and QC (Quade Cooper) very lucky.

But, as is clear, QC (Quade Cooper) has stepped up brilliantly, still can't tackle, but looked composed and a credible backline leader. Has got ahead of not only KB (Kurtley Beale) but probably also BB.

What say you guys about the future of 10 in Aussie rugby? Quade, Kurtley, Berrick, Lealifanietc, or stick with Gits?

 

[rugbywhisperer]

Gits has done extremely well at 10 but I still can't see it as his positin. We need a straighter runner at 10 amd we need more direction at 12. We have seen what can happen and 13 had more room and generally a better line to attack.
I agree Cooper has come on but I still see a flakiness that Barnes doesn't show. KB (Kurtley Beale) has a lot of work to do - literally. He looks as though he has skipped the heroics and gone straight to retirement and teamed up with Ella.
I would still like to see the Barnes/Gits/AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) combination as Cooper has a lot to do to get on top of Barnes.
It will be interesting how the positions in the S14 go as this could determine the future but then again Deans hasn't stood firm on tradition anyway and could put them anywhere.

 

[formeropenside]

I would not say QC (Quade Cooper) is ahead of BB.

 

[Pfitzy]

At the moment Beale is behind Quade, primarily because Quade has made a pretty good fist of his opportunities at Test level. Beale may be a little unlucky with selection and injury in that regard, but you can only judge on what you see.

What continually worries me about Cooper is he's too ready to pick a fight. Its fine to stand up for your mates, but dropping an elbow on a guy and then getting indignant when his mate tries to clean your clock is pretty stupid. He still looks like dropping the shoulder in too much. He's stopped doing the Benji Marshall hop-step shit that was holding him back.

What I really like about Quade's game, watching that Barbarians fixture again, is he is really ball-aware on the attacking line. He stands flat, rather than running onto the ball too hard, and then accelerates as he's getting the ball really well - means it almost never goes behind him even if the timing of the pass he gets is a little off. He looks like he has time to do what he wants which is always a good sign, and doesn't just robotically run the moves, or expect things to have fallen into place perfectly.

It will be interesting to see if Beale has any further maturity after last season when his injury probably halted any momentum we had in the S14 final. I hope he's learned a lot and lays off the cheeseburgers.

 

[TOCC]

I don't think it is all quades fault that the fight started
I suspect eddie jones told his players to pressure him a bit
On top of that, I have no problem with the way quade reacted

 

[rugbywhisperer]

WRT Quade's game. I remember seeing the test and state debuts for players like Ballesty, Paul McLean, Ella, Lynagh and Larkam and all of then exhuded a level of confidnece and excellence that is just lacking in both Cooper and Beale. They just look as though they are winging it right now.
Barnes does or did have that level of excellence when he first stepped onto the S14 and test stage - not as refined as the others I mentioned but he just gives me far more confidence than KB (Kurtley Beale) and Cooper for that 10 spot which for the next 3 years is vitally important we get it right and ready..

 

[Pfitzy]

I don't think it is all quades fault that the fight started

Well, if you ignore the forearms he threw at Du Preez both standing up and on the deck, yes I see your point. This is the sort of stupid shit (along with shoulder charge tackles) Quade needs to eliminate from his game if he wants to advance further. Aggression is fine. Stupidity is not.

 

[Scotty]

Agree with Nick, he has a long way to go on certain areas of his game, but he does have areas of his game that are better than what Barnes or Giteau can offer. He has a longer boot (when it isn't charged down), longer pass and he is more creative for the players outside him. Have we even seen Giteau put anyone in a hole at all this year? Have we seen Giteau put a chip kick in that was as successful as Quade's against the Barbars?

I have been convinced that Giteau is not a 10 - he has always looked better when he has been pushed out to 12. Giteau is a player that likes to make the half break himself and then pass on the inside or flick outside to support. Cooper and Barnes are players that don't always look to run before passing - they often let the ball do the work.

Barnes seems to be the best of the three at controlling a game, and clearly has the best defense.

At the moment I'd have Barnes at FH and Giteau at 12 with Cooper on the bench. Kurtley I will comment on after the S14 next year.

 

[TOCC]

is it only a coincidence that since Giteau has taken over as 5/8 Australias backline attack has become quite blunt?

He is great at kicking and making the right decisions, but i dont think Giteau is a play maker, Larkham was a playmaker not a kicker, and i think Quade is a playmaker as well.

I suppose it comes down to what Deans wants, its a bit scary to think in the next 2 years australia is going to have a oversupply of 5/8 and inside centres Giteau, Barnes, Cooper, Beale and JOC (James O'Connor) to name a few.

 

[Aussie D]

I look into my crystal ball and see a Brumbies jumper that could make the KB (Kurtley Beale)/QC (Quade Cooper) debate moot. I will be watching Lealifano's battle to nail down the starting jumper as Matt To'omua matures. Having heard about him on this forum and watched him once or twice for Easts IMHO this kid is the real deal. Doesn't seem to shirk the defensive duties at fly-half and has a good instinct for controlling the game.

 

[TOCC]

i dont see To'omua's future at 5/8
I think he is better off in the centres or at fullback

 

[fatprop]

I look into my crystal ball and see a Brumbies jumper that could make the KB (Kurtley Beale)/QC (Quade Cooper) debate moot. I will be watching Lealifano's battle to nail down the starting jumper as Matt To'omua matures. Having heard about him on this forum and watched him once or twice for Easts IMHO this kid is the real deal. Doesn't seem to shirk the defensive duties at fly-half and has a good instinct for controlling the game.

Agreed To'omua looks special

 

[spectator]

I'm not in a position to comment on Kurtley Beale but the little that I have seen of him suggests that he has the talent to go all the way.

Having seen a lot more of Cooper and To'omua, I am prepared to say that they are two of the best schoolboy 10's I have seen, but for different reasons.

Cooper is freakish, has a wonderful pass both sides, can step both ways as well, and reads play very intelligently. At schools level he had a superior kicking game, and with some focused work I am sure that he can ramp it up at the senior level. His major problem is that until he got out of school rugby, everything was far too easy. Once he gets his head straight he will be awesome, and there are signs that is already starting to happen.

As LG has said in the past, To'omua is a brown Noddy Lynagh. Wonderful vision and a great kicking and passing game. At junior level, his control of his backline and the game in general, was superior. Added to that is a very strong defensive game and a mature head.

Australia's five eighth stocks in coming years are outstanding, and throw in guys like Lealifano and Lucas, there is plenty to be excited about.

 

[Spook]

Quade is more dangerous than BB but BB is a lot more solid all round and has a better attitude. Quade also needs to stop thinking he is a big tough man. No dickheads pls. I think ultimately Cooper could eclipse BB as he has more X-factor. He just needs to pick his moments.

As for Beale, he needs to sort his fitness and defense out before he can be considered. He hasn't shown me he can control a game yet. Lealiifano is in the same bracket but needs to get flatter on the gain line. Lealiifano has a good short kicking game but a poor long kicking game. That needs to develop. I see him as a very good 12 in the making as he is quite good at getting over the advantage line and has pace.

To'omua is still young and I've not seen enough of him. I also like the look of JOC (James O'Connor). He looks very good indeed.

 

[Lee Grant]

i dont see To'omua's future at 5/8
I think he is better off in the centres or at fullback

On what basis? Have you seen him play in those positions? I confess that I have not.

It was predicted by good judges (ahem) in 2005 that the long term future market for flyhalves looked good. Two young flyhalves, Beale and Cooper, with a year still to go at school, had ousted the 2004 flyhalves, Lealiifano and Lucas, who had returned to school for their final year.

Beale was the starting flyhalf in 2005 with Cooper in the reserves, and in 2006 it was 10 Beale and 12 Cooper. In 2005 we knew about Scott Daruda the captain (IIRR) of the Oz U/19 team but yours truly hadn't seen him play - and Berrick Barnes was not on the radar having disappeared to the Dark Side.

But even without Daruda and Barnes, 2005 was the year of the young flyhalves.

Then in 2006 Matt To'omua showed up for Qld II Schools though he didn't take my eye. Little did I know as a NSW person how young he was, until a few months later when he starred in the U/16 championship. Woo-hoo, there was yet another future gun flyhalf in the mix.

As we all know now: Beale, Cooper, Lealiifano, Lucas (as a scrummie), Daruda, Barnes and even To'omua have played Super14 rugby and Barnes and Cooper have played for Oz.

Having so many young no.10s running around in professional rugby doesn't guarantee that we are going to have a couple of them as long term Wallabies worthy of consideration for World XVs from time to time, but things are looking up in that department aren't they?

All of them have their drawbacks as others have discussed and they include susceptibility to injury, onfield niggle, off field indiscipline, inability to run a backline, doubtful defence, lack of speed, poor goal kicking, poor kicking from hand, yarda yarda.

I'm not going to buy into who is better between Cooper and Beale or this guy and another guy. After all, as we speak, Cooper is only 20, Beale 19 and To'omua 18. The next two years will see a lot of matters resolved and not just between Cooper and Beale.

For the present I have to agree with Ben Tune (as I, and others, have said before): Giteau is better one out at 12.

There he is in a better position (literally) to take the outside break he craves; there he can off load half way through to a Mortlock or AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper); there his left foot kicking can be an excellent foil to a right footed Barnes or whomever; there, hopefully, he can work on adding value to the play of the men outside him by using the ball better, as a 12, than he has in the past.

Having said that, I am glad we had him available there for the just finished EOYT. With all his limitations as a 10 he has been one of our best players in 2008, and if that sounds a bit Irish (no offence T78), so be it.

 

[Lindommer]

Re: Quade v Kurtley

It was very, very disappointing to see that picture of a blown-up Beale and read about his weight issues. If he's not motivated to get stuck into training and watch his diet and general fitness to counter the opportunities Cooper received on the EOYT, well it doesn't look good for the future. Is he mentally tough enough? He was an outstanding schoolboy rugby player, one of the best I've seen; maybe it all came too easy for him.

Beale had a priceless chance to steal a march on all those rivals listed here with his start in Super rugby last year. His performances for the Tahs this year were a vital contribution to their success getting into the semis and he played well enough during his time on the paddock in the final against the Saders. But, gee, his defence still needs a lot of work.

Cooper's various brain snaps (poor discipline, stupid kicks) are all fixable. It'd be good to see some old lag take him under his wing, and give him the occasional clip over the ear when required. He looks like an angry young man who doesn't have a clue why he's angry. Maybe a stint of something completely different, a Christmas spent helping the homeless on the streets of Brisbane, might make him realise how bloody lucky he is and give him a bit of inner contentment. When Cooper gets his mind in order he'll be a great rugby player.

 

[Scotty]

Unfortunately with the professional age of rugby well and truly upon young players these days, we are going to get more and more dickheads, ala league and european football. When I read about how 'confident' a player someone like JOC (James O'Connor) is for a young guy, sometimes I'm also ready he could be cocky, and a bit of a wanker - or at least it could go that way.

I hope the older guys keep the young ones heads on straight.

 

[TOCC]

i dont see To'omua's future at 5/8
I think he is better off in the centres or at fullback

On what basis? Have you seen him play in those positions? I confess that I have not.

i have seen him play, albeit it only one game

i was basing the comment on the expectation that Giteau will return to the Brumbies in 2009 or 2010, at which point i expect he will slide back into the 5/8 position.

On top of that, i expect and hope that it is To'omua'a ultimate goal to someday represent the wallabies, in the next couple of seasons i think fullback and centre will be our weaker positions as opposed to 5/8 where we have quite a few strong potential candidates in the players already named. With this in mind, and with Giteau playing 5/8 for the Brumbies i think To'omua will probably play out of the fullback or centre position.

As people have already said, he is a good tactical thinker and has a strong defensive game which is ultimately suited well to fullback.

Sure things can change quickly but thats just my opinion...

 

[spectator]

12 might be a consideration I guess but I don't think he has the foot speed for 15

 

[Lee Grant]

That's my opinion also speckie - and he was the one I was thinking about when I mentioned "lack of speed".

TOCC - points taken - you seemed so forthright that I assumed that you had seen him play in those spots.