Reds vs Cheetahs, Rnd 4.

[USARugger]

@Gel

Just rewatched "that" box kick.

Davies would likely not even have made it through that clogged space, if any one of 6/7/8 had held their line Rod would have never even had a chance to chase the ball.

To top it off, we had a fairly sizeable overlap against a defense scrambling backwards to realign and the offside winger was not on that side of the ruck. In fact, there wasn't a single Cheetahs player in that area of the ruck. Genia had a completely clear alley to run, or god forbid, pass the ball.

In fact, you can see Toua flying into space (nearest Cheetahs defender to his right is behind the ruck and you can barely see the shadow of the cover defender at the time Genia should have given the ball) as Genia begins his kicking motion. You want to talk about nobody being in behind..2m pass to the left of the ruck and Toua is in under the sticks.

After rewatching the clip I'm actually thinking that I wasn't harsh enough in my assessment and should have thrown at least two glasses. Remarkably poor reading of the game and short of kicking the ball directly into touch was probably the worst decision he could have made in that situation.

Piss-poor low, low, low percentage play at best. 6/7/8 all scrambling to get back the second that they saw Genia pick that ball up. Even a short pass over the top or around the player to Rod and let him try to misfoot them as they backpedal would have been better than that kick.

 

[Braveheart81]

Reds discipline is absolutely diabolical. Simmons and S. Fainga'a being the worst culprits.

Attack was good in patches but I think the Cheetahs are pretty poor this year.

Schatz looked to be a bit ineffective again. I think a reshuffle of the back row would help.

Genia needs a rocket up him. So far from not only his best but also from what is expected of a starting Super Rugby half back.

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[RedsHappy]

Sorry to ruin your hard work there but your comments suggest 32000 people bought tickets to that stormers game. 31000 to the Canes and only 28000 to last nights game.

You've neglected to factor in memberships. The last two would have been around 20000 around this time whilst this year it's about 30k.

The qru have pretty much already made more money through ticket sales via memberships this year than the last 2 yrs.

Add in that the crusaders game is shaping to be a 40000+ crowd at least and I think the concerns you raise are unjustified.

A very valid point re total $ membership income you raise Reg, I get it, and thanks. It's a very valid counter to a 'seats taken at entry' stat.

I was trying just to look at little bits of data, and I did say they may mean little in isolation.

But was it so that at 2012's and '13's season's start we only had signed 20k members?. I honestly thought the number was higher then. The Wikipedia entry for 'Queensland Reds' has membership levels (I assume this was max numbers for the whole season at any season point) at:

2011: (rounded) 16,000
2012: (rounded) 33,000
2013: (rounded) 36,000

I would still argue that there must be a point where absolute S15 crowd numbers and annual trends thereof - positively or negatively - start to affect membership take-up over a number of years. And, obviously, the position of the Reds in gaining (or not) home QFs, SFs or Fs adds very materially to total QRU income and doesn't directly relate to membership income levels per se but very much does relate to how successful the team is in any one year. A sort of related point: does the QRU get a share of food and drink sales at games? If so, and if this is material, then crowd levels would affect this level of income (but it may be only minor per crowd person).

Finally: the fact that so many Kiwis love migrating to SEQ does wonders for our vs Crusaders home game crowds and QRU income .

 

[Quick Hands]

The Waratahs would kill to be getting 28,000 to home games. More games like last night (particularly if the Reds win) should see crowds rise well into the 30,000s.

Usually stadia like Suncorp lease out the catering, so it wouldn't matter to the ground hirer how many people come.

 

[Ignoto]

Hmmm. '...notoriously take a while to build..6:40 KO..'.

3 March 2012: 6:40pm: Reds v Force: (rounded): 34,000

23 February 2013: 6:40pm: Reds v Tahs: 36,000

You do realise the first game against the force was the Reds first home game after winning the title the previous year? So there's a huge influx of people who bought tickets to see the current champions play.

The second game was against the Tahs which has always been one of the Reds biggest games.

More importantly, you're comparing numbers that aren't the same. I would dare say there are less Cheetahs fans over in Brisbane than there are New South Welshmen and Perthites. By playing Australian teams you're going to have a larger draw card than a lowly African team that a majority of rugby following Brisbane residents know or care about.

I would also dare say, a lot of people who bought three match memberships haven't turned up as they booked them for the three weeks in a row we have in a month. Rather than using the odd game here against a crappy team.

So I'm afraid to say, you're really grasping at straws here, numbers may have been down compared to other matches but statistically speaking your data pool is so limited that you can't infer anything.

 

[RugbyReg]

Usually stadia like Suncorp lease out the catering, so it wouldn't matter to the ground hirer how many people come.

Yeah but the hirer usually gets a cut. The reds certainly do.

 

[gel]

@usarugger. Thanks for taking the time, I guess we see it pretty differently.

 

[Quick Hands]

Yeah but the hirer usually gets a cut. The reds certainly do.

Lucky Reds, doesn't work that way down here unfortunately.

 

[RugbyReg]

Yeah but the hirer usually gets a cut. The reds certainly do.

Lucky Reds, doesn't work that way down here unfortunately.

For the Tahs? Seriously? They don't get a cut of any F&B sold at the SFS ? That's outrageous.

 

[emuarse]

Just a small coda to my post above re Reds' crowd levels.

I've tracked the Suncorp crowds for the first home game of each year against non-Aus S15 competition (as Aus competition does typically increase crowd numbers, esp vs the Tahs and Brums):

2012 v Stormers (rounded): 32,000
2013 v 'Canes: 31,000
2014 v Cheetahs: 28,000

This little trend may mean nothing overall, but it's interesting nonetheless.

If the Reds' annual season average crowd drops by say 3,000, that's 24,000 X say $30 per average ticket = $720,000. A significant piece of income to fund or not the totality of QRU operations. If that happens sequentially year-on-year, the total income lost gets significant..and so on.

My crude theory is that, like it to not, the Reds have to keep consistently playing exciting, crowd-pulling, mostly winning rugby and get right up there in the Finals (or even better, a home F) in order to achieve the type of sustained crowd levels that make the QRU's $ income levels the justified envy of other franchises.

Just a few facts that might have effected those previous crowd numbers:-

In 2012 the Reds V Stormers game was not until Round 9. on 20th April.
Up until then the Stormers had only lost one game to the Crusaders (24 - 31 in NZ. & the Reds had lost 3 games (one against the Bulls 8 - 61).

So the crowd turned out in numbers that night to see the Reds toss the Stormers, but alas the Stormers won 23 - 13, but the fact it was well into April would account for the higher numbers, against a side that was No 1 at the time.

And as for the Hurricanes game - it's obvious that half the crowd were expatriate Kiwis. and there are always large crowds when a Kiwi side is in town.
Sorry to blow your theory to bits, but a bit of research helps.

 

[Quick Hands]

For the Tahs? Seriously? They don't get a cut of any F&B sold at the SFS ? That's outrageous.

No, the SCG Trust sell the rights to F & B companies, same happens at Homebush and all the othr major grounds down here. Ground owner gets guaranteed revenue, all risk is with the private company who win the tender. (Which is probably why the prices are so high)

 

[Ruggo]

CFS and Davies looked destructive. Davies is very underated in what he does and CFS to me looks like the little wrecking ball we used to have in Digby if not a bit more agile. I like the look of him at 13.

I have been rough on Toua the last couple of weeks but he was good last night and settling into position. Forget the shit I dribbled and let him develop into the position.

 

[spikhaza]

ALready excited for that Crusaders match Reg.

Isn't it funny how human psychology works:

Normally you get ~30000 people to a Reds game, rusted on fans + occasional fans and +1's.

For the crusaders game, 8-10k kiwis buy tickets and all of a sudden the press reports theres 40k people going... everyone goes fuck this is going to be a ding dong affair with a real atmosphere, all the casual fans buy up tickets and it sells out.

 

[Troy]

We were there last night with a lot of our neighbourhood, all now members. Had a grata night, my 7 year old daughter played in the Rookies 2 Reds at halftime and us still buzzing.

My wife and daughter gave Eddie and Liam their jerseys on Tuesday and both had a great night! 5 points 5 tries home win, take that every day of the week!

But geez, being born in Durban, I do hope we win next weeks game even if it's by 1 point!


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[Mr Doug]

Thanks for that coverage info, djeff. I was pissed off last night, and had only imbibed 3 stubbies. You can imagine how I felt later in the night after adding three glasses of red!!
I've offered Reds my services two days a week to help run their Marketing Dept!....So far, no reply!!

I'm not as pessimistic as many other members, and congratulate Quade on being the highest points scorer in Reds history!

 

[RugbyReg]

I'm not as pessimistic as many other members, and congratulate Quade on being the highest points scorer in Reds history!

In SUPER RUGBY history.

 

[Gnostic]

My take on the game is that the Reds are struggling. The defence has some gaping holes and many metres are made far too easily. In particular the following points

1)I was shaking my head in disgust with many of the "territorial" kicks from the Reds that had no effective chase and a slow defensive line. Reminded me far too much of the old Tahs in tactic and execution, yet what made it worse was the poor one on one defence on the return, particularly between 12 and 13.

2)Accuracy at the ruck, for the second week running key tight forwards were very inaccurate in what they were doing, and I will single out Simmons in particular here.

3) The backrow - I don't know what is going on but perhaps it is a lack of balance, one of Shatz or Quirk has to go to the bench IMO. I would be starting with Robinson as the lift in speed and aggression that he has brought off the bench is noticeably missing from the aforementioned.

Finally I find it amusing when genuine critique is written off out of hand as pessimistic, anti-fan, etc. For years here I decried the problems at the Tahs and did my usual thing of posting at great length at what I saw as the issues. Fast forward 5 years and we see in Chieka's second year people across the conferences applauding the Tahs dynamic incisive play and their application. The fact that it took so long has almost killed the Tahs and part of this is due to the lack of genuine critique and a sycophantic and corrupt media. So whenever somebody thoughtfully posts genuine critique it is worth reading and considering carefully the points, if you disagree post so, but offer something in return other than the pessimism/anti-fan line, lest the Reds start the long road back down the hill. Australian Rugby cannot afford that as the Reds/QRU is the only financial light in Australian Rugby and I would like to think that many good lessons could be learnt there for the betterment of the rest of the game in this country.

 

[Mr Doug]

Yes in Super Rugby history, but didn't want to push his barrow so soon after the match!!

 

[Brumby Runner]

I've watched that Genia box kick (it's been bugging me a bit) again this morning on the recording and the more I see it, the more I can't actually blame him for it at all.

Seriously, the cheetahs players are massively offside (11, 7 and 6 with 8 possibly as well) with 11 the worst offender (and consequently out of position - there is NO ONE back), we have just gained good field position from an intercept and a lightning ruck.

Rocket is on the starting blocks and has 6, 7 and 8 to try to chase him down.

If the cheetahs had bothered to even attempt to get onside, then that box kick was never going to be charged down and Rod Davies was over the try line before anyone even new what had happened. A pass was no option because Davies would have been tackled and isolated with a 6, 7 and 8 (the three worst numbers to be hovering over an isolated player) on the ball.

Sure, crucify Genia for some of the things this match, but having really absorbed what had happened, seriously it wasn't actually a poor option at all. If the cheetahs players were onside, we would all be praising his vision in a reds 2nd try scored by rocket at the 3:30 mark.

I find it a little hard to fault a guy for playing the game in manner where he expects the laws to actually be followed - particularly when the infringement is glaringly obvious, bordering on deliberate (seriously, they don't even try to get back on side).

Does any of that make sense???

Yep. Good use of Hawkeye to determine where the ball would have gone had it not been charged down.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Re: Genia.

The thing is, when you have a lot of your kicks charged down due to poor decision making, people will likely blame you when it happens next time. When it's happening enough, you probably need to rethink your execution and decision making.

If it wasn't happen so regularly, people would be making excuses for Genia.

I guess my point is to agree he needs to stop doing it.