Refereeing decisions

[Quick Hands]

^^^To the time the ball is "in play" during the 80 minutes, you also need to consider other stoppages.

TMO referrals - play can stop for 1-2 minutes

Replacements - when either side wants to make replacements, sir blows the whistle and play stops. In the last 20 minutes of a match when fatigue should be setting in, this occurs every few minutes.

Injuries - time off and play stops. On a couple of occasions yesterday I counted 8 trainers, physios, water carriers on the field during injury stoppages. (including the refs trainer). So what once would have taken 30 secs to treat the one injured player, now takes up to 2 minutes while almost all 31 participants have a drink and a chat.

I spent about 8 hours yesterday watching 4 super rugby matches and the amount of time taken from whistle to scrum pack to scrum end is excruciating and lineouts aren't much better.

An 80 minute match with 10 minutes for half time should be over in about 95 minutes (factoring in some injury time). I reckon most super matches take between 110-120 minutes. (And the same would apply to tests)

 

[Strewthcobber]

IRB published stats from the last WC. The ball was in play on average for 35 minutes per game.

More time was taken by getting ready for the scrum and kicking for goal than actual play.

35 minutes was a dramatic improvement from earlier cups.

http://www.theroar.com.au/2012/09/03/how-long-is-a-rugby-match-really/

 

[Hugh Jarse]

^^^To the time the ball is "in play" during the 80 minutes, you also need to consider other stoppages.
<snip>
I spent about 8 hours yesterday watching 4 super rugby matches and the amount of time taken from whistle to scrum pack to scrum end is excruciating and lineouts aren't much better.
<snip>

I reckon a scrum from whistle for the offence until the yappy cheating runt halfback actually feeds the scrum under his hookers feet is a minimum of 60 seconds. Usually more as in many occasions a fatty has a heartlidge issue and requires game time to retie his shoelaces, or clear his studs, or have a drink and chat with their team runner, or treat a very minor but potentially catastrophic injury that is often miraculously fixed by a rest of 30 seconds + to their breath back.
Add in a second pack of the scrum because one of the Cauliflower Club decide that they have set up too close and aren't ready to pack and it is 90-120 seconds before the scrum is fed and the ball becomes contestable.

I reckon a lineout is a minimum 30 second delay on average between the ball going out, and leaving the (typically) Hookers hands ready for the Tall Timber to contest the ball.

The Law gives 90 seconds from when the Kicking Tee arrives until the PK or Conversion must be taken, and many kickers take most of that time. Add in 20 seconds for the teams to go to their restart positions for the kick off is the goal kick is successful and there is 2 minutes of game time gone.

10 scrums, 20 lineouts, 10 shots at goal with 4 being successful and there could be 30 minutes of game time that the ball is not actively being contested for "just like that".

By more liberal use of the advantage, and less PK (result lineout - 30 seconds lost) and less scrums (minumum 1 minute lost), referees can make the ball more available for longer. Are the players and spectators up for it though?

 

[yourmatesam]

The players are on control of scrums. Yes the ref needs to call the scrum in and penalise as required, but the players control the vast majority of the scrum occurring (knock on/forward pass/etc etc), and control the speed of the setup, contact and shape post engagement and resets.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Well just watched NZs Breakdown (TV rugby show) and had 2 refs as guests Glen Jackson and Chris Pollock, asked them for opinions on one or 2 decisions, one where Jackson says yep got that wrong etc, but I found it incredibly interesting to hear what they look at in games, even how they think you can miss something just by being in a certain position etc etc. Was great viewing and a lot of 'experts' on rugby forums would be well placed to listen to what refs have to say etc. No wonder that a favourite rugby programme of mine!

For a while they were posting that show on YouTube, but once the new studios were finished that seemed to stop. Which sucks for me, because I'm nowhere near your hemisphere and can't watch Sky NZ.

But former England hooker Brian Moore hosts a rugby radio show on Sundays called Full Contact (also available as a podcast), and he ends every show with a Nigel Owens segment on referring decisions. They generally have a 5-10 minute talk, and although Owens can't legally comment on specific decisions, he gives very good breakdowns of situations and what refs like him are looking for (or should be looking for).

 

[Dan54]

mxyz, I think that show by Moore sounds good to, the one I saw Jackson and Pollock did discuss actual decisions, by them and another ref, also generally what they are trying to look for because as Pollock said if you could probably penalise every ruck/maul if you put mind to it.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Hoffmann made a howler tonight in the Tahs/Rebels game in ruling a Rebels' clearing kick for touch was taken outside the 22m. Could that decision have been reviewed as it happened withing two phases of the try being scored by Horne, or does the stoppage in play for the lineout negate the review?

 

[cyclopath]

Hoffmann made a howler tonight in the Tahs/Rebels game in ruling a Rebels' clearing kick for touch was taken outside the 22m. Could that decision have been reviewed as it happened withing two phases of the try being scored by Horne, or does the stoppage in play for the lineout negate the review?

I think they can go back that far; I think it depends what the ref asks to be reviewed, though. I think.
I didn't see any of the game, but from what I've seen on social media, it was a howler indeed.
He's not exactly shining as a ref so far.

 

[TheHam]

To be fair to Hoffmann, the problem really arose from the ground markings.

You can see why he made the call. The question is: Why was the RL line still marked and not masked with green paint? ANZ - what's going on???

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

^^^^^^^^ I'd expect the match officials to have noticed the redundant markings & to double-check which line they'd used esp when the kicker clearly points out the ref's mistake. Shoulda asked for a replay & Rebels have every right to go ape about it.

 

[Tex]

Fuck being fair to Hoffman, the waratahs clearly knew which line was the 22 and were using it as offside.

Higgers should have called for a review, McGahan should write to SANZAR(?) and request a formal explanation and apology. Outrageous.

 

[Wilson]

To be fair to Hoffmann, the problem really arose from the ground markings.

You can see why he made the call. The question is: Why was the RL line still marked and not masked with green paint? ANZ - what's going on???

I think they mentioned on the commentary that the league markings were still there because of the rain, I'm guessing that meant they didn't have an opportunity to paint over.

Either way, he or the touchies should have noticed something there and if they weren't sure checked upstairs.

 

[Nusadan]

To be fair again to Hoffman, it is usually the AR who determines where the lineout is to be placed, however the referee has the final say though.

 

[Brumby Runner]

He's not exactly shining as a ref so far.

Not many are. For the record, I think the best ref performance I've seen this year was from a Saffa novice, van der Westhuizan, very early on and I don't think he has reffed since, Seems to be running the touch line each week.

 

[SammyP]

To be fair to Hoffmann, the problem really arose from the ground markings.

You can see why he made the call. The question is: Why was the RL line still marked and not masked with green paint? ANZ - what's going on???

I'm not going to be fair to Hoffman because his screw up changed the game. Basics of refereeing any sport, know which lines apply to the game. My brother in law heard the TMO tell him the ball was inside the 22, he had the earphones, but Hoffman said he had already made the ruling.
I want to know how the hell he can miss the 22m line when Skelton is behind it right in front of him, Horne is standing on the giant 22 marking. Yes, the touchies were just as poor, they should have known exactly where the play was happening, but Hoffman was calling "taken back" as the ball was kicked so the touchie may have responded to that when he put the flag out.
Either way, as head ref it was Hoffmans fault.

 

[Brumby Runner]

To be fair again to Hoffman, it is usually the AR who determines where the lineout is to be placed, however the referee has the final say though.

Sorry - can't be fair or offer excuses for a mistake like that one. Refs as often as not over-rule the touchie, and if there is doubt they often go back to check the video. But it seems it's one way street. Use the video to bring the lineout back if the ruck was outside the 22m but don't dare check if the ref was wrong in incorrectly ruling the ruck was actually inside the 22m.

 

[TheHam]

I think they mentioned on the commentary that the league markings were still there because of the rain, I'm guessing that meant they didn't have an opportunity to paint over.

I call shenanigans.

Was the rain only in the endzones of the field?

What's all this new paint around the halfway line?

Oh, I'm sorry. It's for the SPONSOR'S LOGO. Makes sense. Lets just have a quick look to see if the "Asteron Life SupeRugby" logo was there for the earlier NRL game...

Well, it doesn't seem to be there... And yet it somehow appeared in time for the Soup game:

What's the go - did they use boat paint?

Either way, he or the touchies should have noticed something there and if they weren't sure checked upstairs.

the TMO tell him the ball was inside the 22, he had the earphones, but Hoffman said he had already made the ruling.

Fair points.

But there was still a line painted on the field at the wrong distance.

 

[boyo]

IMO the ARs need to be more forthright about matters - most of the time they seem to be mute(Apart from James Leckie). Yes I know that the ref' determines how much input is received from the ARs

 

[Lindommer]

Having been a junior ref and a touchie for grade matches in Sydney often played on grounds with league markings Hoffman's mistake was reprehensible. Especially when the TJ/AR AND the TMO pointed it out to him. There was an excellent example in NZ last week (Saders/Chiefs match?) of a ref changing his mind when the TJ/AR pointed out he'd ruled the wrong way on a scrum put in, Hoffman should've had the commonsense to do the same. As a former touchie (Level 2) refs ignoring them when they have a clearer view of the incident is a pet peeve of mine. I know I carry on about this but soccer's practice where the ARs rule on ALL matter of offside has a lot going for it; the TJ/ARs are in a much better position than the central ref with a clear view across the field.

A word from the wise, Rohan: if you ever find yourself whistling a match in Sydney, or Brisbane or Canberra or NZ, where league may've been played at some time, have a bloody good look at the ground markings. It's difficult to believe you didn't notice them in your pre-ground inspection.

 

[Baldric]

He would have warmed up out on the ground before the game and taken note of that. If not its an pretty basic error on his part. Add to that not listening the the AR.
The Hoff could be carrying a flag for the next few weeks.