RWC QF 3 IRE v ARG (Millenium Stadium) 18th Oct 2300 AEDT

[Iñaki Zubizarreta]

Oh, he will be ok then. Bosch will return for us.

Thank you very much, sometimes I don't get some colloquial words haha

 

[Quick Hands]

I agree the conditions play a big role in the way British teams play since most of their season is played when it is raining and windy nearly every day.

So what is the excuse for teams from the south of France? Which 90% of French teams.

And it tends to rain about as much in New Zealand as it does in Britain. I've seen plenty of Kiwi super derbies in heavy rain/wind and both teams play ball in hand. It's about mindset.

 

[Quick Hands]

I really think not much will change until the NH stops playing in the NH winter, and shifts its season. The World Cup is played in crisp fall weather, and that's good for a certain kind of game, but it's not a game the NH teams have been playing for years now. The Top 14, Premiership and Pro 12 generally play in sludge, sleet and occasional snow on heavy, wet winter pitches, and play a style that resists passing because it's harder to retain possession in those conditions. It tends to be a collision- and territory-oriented game, which can be picked apart of a good, clinical, professional side. (Although Glasgow under Townsend and Leinster under Schmidt suggest otherwise, but Harlequins under O'Shea only make a predominantly running-and-offloading style work some of the time in the Premiership.)

Plus the SH semifinalists all just finished playing a series of Test matches against each other only a month before the RWC kicked off, while the NH sides were coming off a break and then playing meaningless warm-up games. Before those games, most of the NH players were something like 10 or more weeks off. They play more overall club rugby in worse conditions, and their schedule doesn't provide the best lead-in to the World Cup.

Short of putting hybrid pitches in and roofs up over every European stadium, or playing the 6N in July and August, or playing the RWC in February in Scotland, this will likely be the state of things for the foreseeable future.

Have to disagree with this line of argument. Yes, conditions are different from those in Australia and South Africa, but not so very different from NZ. Kiwis learn their rugby on the same heavy, wet pitches - they just have a different approach to it. The Kiwis work hard on those catch/pass skills so that they can do it in all conditions. The NH default postion is to say we can't do it because it's wet and windy.

 

[Shelts89]

And it tends to rain about as much in New Zealand as it does in Britain. I've seen plenty of Kiwi super derbies in heavy rain/wind and both teams play ball in hand. It's about mindset.

In the south island I suppose, surely not in the north island? Always looks pretty warm in the north of New Zealand. Could be all wrong as I have never been!

 

[mxyzptlk]

Have to disagree with this line of argument. Yes, conditions are different from those in Australia and South Africa, but not so very different from NZ. Kiwis learn their rugby on the same heavy, wet pitches - they just have a different approach to it. The Kiwis work hard on those catch/pass skills so that they can do it in all conditions. The NH default postion is to say we can't do it because it's wet and windy.

Said elsewhere, if they really want to make it similar, Super Rugby should play all of their matches in Invercargill between June and August. The northern part of the South Island might be closer to mid-and-southern France.

And it tends to rain about as much in New Zealand as it does in Britain. I've seen plenty of Kiwi super derbies in heavy rain/wind and both teams play ball in hand. It's about mindset.

Have you watched the Stags play lately? They don't fling it around like even Otago/the Highlanders, who moved indoors and got a lot better as a result. Far more rain falls on the southwestern part of the southern island than elsewhere. (You actually got me to check.)

 

[the plastic paddy]

Have to disagree with this line of argument. Yes, conditions are different from those in Australia and South Africa, but not so very different from NZ. Kiwis learn their rugby on the same heavy, wet pitches - they just have a different approach to it. The Kiwis work hard on those catch/pass skills so that they can do it in all conditions. The NH default postion is to say we can't do it because it's wet and windy.

The NH teams have been playing, without a break now, since July 2014. By the time we undertake three test tours in June 2016, the SH teams will have had two full and uncompromised breaks since the NH teams had their last one. The NH players will be looking at 23 months continuous rugby.

In 2017, the best in Britain and Ireland will compromise their summer break to beat shite out of each other while playing for the Lions only to play 12? games against teams hell bent on beating the shite out of the Lions as well.

Every year, be it RWC or Lions, SH players get full breaks, 1 year out of four NH players get none and another, the top players (including two Irish lions who were out injured today, coincidentally) are off in Aus, NZ and SA respectively playing for the Lions.

I think the Lions will be under threat after this RWC.

 

[mxyzptlk]

The NH teams have been playing, without a break now, since July 2014. By the time we undertake three test tours in June 2016, the SH teams will have had two full and uncompromised breaks since the NH teams had their last one. The NH players will be looking at 23 months continuous rugby.

In 2017, the best in Britain and Ireland will compromise their summer break to beat shite out of each other while playing for the Lions only to play 12? games against teams hell bent on beating the shite out of the Lions as well.

Every year, be it RWC or Lions, SH players get full breaks, 1 year out of four NH players get none and another, the top players (including three Irish lions who were out injured today, coincidentally) are off in Aus, NZ and SA respectively playing for the Lions.

I think the Lions will be under threat after this RWC.

I'd love to see leagues limited to something around 18 games total. Still don't think the players will get reasonable rest until there's a global season in place.

I was listening to a podcast the other day, and they were talking about the Premiership and how fit the players looked compared to previous seasons. They have a shortened season this year, and because of that a lot of the Premiership players who weren't in the RWC had more than a month's rest, something like that. Their point was you could see an immediate difference in the shape they came in at and how they played.

(Granted, I didn't see the games, so I'm imagining they just ran into each other harder and faster, because it's the Premiership.)

 

[No4918]

The NH teams have been playing, without a break now, since July 2014. By the time we undertake three test tours in June 2016, the SH teams will have had two full and uncompromised breaks since the NH teams had their last one. The NH players will be looking at 23 months continuous rugby.

In 2017, the best in Britain and Ireland will compromise their summer break to beat shite out of each other while playing for the Lions only to play 12? games against teams hell bent on beating the shite out of the Lions as well.

Every year, be it RWC or Lions, SH players get full breaks, 1 year out of four NH players get none and another, the top players (including three Irish lions who were out injured today, coincidentally) are off in Aus, NZ and SA respectively playing for the Lions.

I think the Lions will be under threat after this RWC.

I was going to gloat about the best 4 aides in the world being from the SH. Now I feel bad about it.

 

[the plastic paddy]

Something is going to give after this RWC, IMHO.

 

[the plastic paddy]

I was going to gloat about the best 4 aides in the world being from the SH. Now I feel bad about it.

Gloat all you want, but all the money is in the NH and increasingly it is concentrated in the hands of people who regard the international game as an incumbrance. As I say, something is going to give and, if it is the Lions the SH will have even less money to keep players at home.

 

[No4918]

Gloat all you want, but all the money is in the NH and increasingly it is concentrated in the hands of people who regard the international game as an incumbrance. As I say, something is going to give and, if it is the Lions the SH will have even less money to keep players at home.

Do you really think it will come to that? I don't know enough about the machinations of NH rugby politics to know. I also was unawware the guys play so much over there so agree something should be done.

I won't gloat as it could easily have been different. A contentious penalty saw Australia safe. And full strength Irish and Welsh sides would have been a whole different challenge in their respective matches.

 

[the plastic paddy]

I have compared the careers of Jamie Heaslip and Kieran Read. Very similar in age, obviously position and both employed by their respective unions at club and international level. Heaslip averages out at two months more of rugby per year, 8/9 games, over the course of his career. And Heaslip is a lad who has his playing time carefully managed, God knows how Read would compare to an English or French player.

 

[Shelts89]

Do you really think it will come to that? I don't know enough about the machinations of NH rugby politics to know. I also was unawware the guys play so much over there so agree something should be done.

I won't gloat as it could easily have been different. A contentious penalty saw Australia safe. And full strength Irish and Welsh sides would have been a whole different challenge in their respective matches.​

Just checked on Bath rugbys website. We play 33 games this season before you add in knock outs and internationals for some players.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Just checked on Bath rugbys website. We play 33 games this season before you add in knock outs and internationals for some players.

Just had a squiz at Leinster, and they'll have 30 games before adding in any knock-out stages and internationals for some players.

By comparison, take this year's Super Rugby champions, Highlanders; just their pre-knock-out fixtures came to a total of 16 games; add 3 for their play-offs. Some of those players will also play for Otago, who have 10 scheduled games prior to play-offs. (But if the player is playing for Otago, they're likely not playing for a Test side.)

So it's possible for an Otago/Highlanders player to get a total of 32 games in during the season, but that player won't be playing internationally. The Test players are getting somewhere between 16-19 pro club games, with maybe a lower division game here or there to get a little form built up. They're effectively playing a little more than just half of what the Premiership or Pro 12 players are getting.

And then there's the Top 14, which seems to add a couple rounds every season. They play 26 rounds in their league alone, plus the Euro Cup games. What a meat grinder.

 

[zer0]

In the south island I suppose, surely not in the north island? Always looks pretty warm in the north of New Zealand. Could be all wrong as I have never been!

Been watching too many Lord of the Rings films/Tourism NZ ads, you have. Auckland and Wellington winters are bad enough to deter a Munsterman.


EDIT: Indeed, the only reason we defeated the Irish at Wellington in 2008 was because a glorious south-westerly arctic front froze them out.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Here's my question: When Schmidt was coaching Leinster, he made them the best passing and offloading team in Europe. They played expansive rugby, they could pull apart a defense in the narrow channels or go wide at will, and played a style that Gregor Townsend is trying to emulate at Glasgow and similar to what Conor O'Shea has tried to employ at Harlequins.

That seems to be the style of play that the SH teams are going with, but Ireland just aren't doing it at the International level. Why is that? Were Leinster just fortunate to have one of the best center combinations in the world when Schmidt was there? Gordon D'Arcy has suggested it's because developing an offloading game takes time and abilities the player needed to have started honing from a young age, and it's just not something that's focused on with kids and junior rugby. But both Glasgow and now Scotland have started to implement that style, and England almost played that style until they psyched themselves out. Even hapless Italy is giving it a go.

Given the results of this tournament -- including how teams like Fiji and Japan played -- it's clear that the NH is well off the mark when it comes to an effective style they can rely on. I'd just like to know why Schmidt chose to shift away from the style that was effective for Leinster. I'm sure he has some good reasons, the guy's clever. Maybe he has plans to get back there, but needs to bed in and work more with players like Henshaw, Earls and Henderson before that style kicks in. But I'm not sure any of the NH teams right now have a reliably effective attacking style (save Japan).

Just another problem to add to their playing twice as much rugby as they probably should.

 

[BabyBlueElephant]

Interesting mxyz, I thought that as well.

Then I thought what if the reason is it's hard to replicate that at international level and Ireland don't have the players. But, Scotland, Japan, Tonga etc can do it and rip defences apart. I think the major fact is at Leinster they played so many games that you need a set game plan to stick to as match by match analysis becomes hard.

For Ireland there's about 10 games per year which gives analysis a dominance especially for a coach like Schmidt to analyse teams in depth and expose weaknesses with precision. Ireland simply have no set game plan, their game plan is often exposing the other teams weaknesses versus Irish strengths.

It's a shame, I think many ireland fans wanted to see a Leinster type style adopted. Leinster in their pomp were like Barcelona in football. It was all about having ridiculously accurate passing and timing to expose defences. I hope Schmidt gets to 2019 RWC via a contract extension. If Gatland has had 7 years in Wales Schmidt deserves at least 5 in Ireland.

 

[papabear]

If four NH sides made it into the semis (in a SH WC) do you think we would hear the end of it.

Of course not, the we play to much and are to tired for the pinnacle of our sport at home excuse is so weak its laughable.

 

[mxyzptlk]

If four NH sides made it into the semis (in a SH WC) do you think we would hear the end of it.

Of course not, the we play to much and are to tired for the pinnacle of our sport at home excuse is so weak its laughable.

Make sense, dammit.

The NH have never had more than two teams in the semis, ever, and have only won a single World Cup. If they had four teams in the semis, it'd be a goddam miracle.

And even the All Blacks have called for a global schedule to make sure players get proper rest and rehab and don't play themselves into the ground, which does nothing to help the game. So your argument is..... ugh.

 

[papabear]

to be fair to the all blacks they exert more energy in a game of rugby then most NH sides, they actually .... run.... and it shows in their results.

Also, for a race horse analogy, the pharlaps etc of this world need proper rest / recuperation / preparation etc. Whereas the workhorse / donkey it can go all day at its plodding pace. If the NH had more rest, at best they would plod with a bit more urgency and allow them to better negotiate their pov with the ref maybe?

Just because the NH have been consistently shit, doesnt mean it stops being fun rubbing it in. The day will come when they have their dominance and they will rub it in, gotta make hay while the sun shines.