School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[Dark Shark]

I have watched this thread for a while now. In recent years it has been very NSW/ Sydney centric. That is probably because the divide between the schools that do and the schools that don't is too large and because of the amount of scholarships handed out as the boys get to the pointy end of their time at school.

In QLD scholarships have been in vogue for just as long but does not seem to generate as much heartache and angst. Some schools on the end of some beltings raised some concerns about safety about four years ago which got the QLD rugby forums firing but it has been fairly quiet by comparison since.

In the QLD GPS thread I made comment on how some schools have invested a little in talent and a lot in coaching to close gaps in the lower age groups (u13's and u14's). From recent results this has seemed to closed the gap between teams and some traditional lopsided results have disappeared. I thought that could only be for the good of the game.

But the observation has also raised the dreaded spectre of scholarships.

I am neither here nor there on scholarships. Managed well and done properly it provides the beneficiaries many opportunities that they would not usually have. Done callously it can be devisive and cause angst to all involved.

It now appears that some schools who were more known for an influx of talent in yr 11 are now taking a longer term view. An example, but far from being the only school is BBC.

Last year BBC won two or three A / First XV matches in all of its age groups. In the past they have tried to paper over the cracks by bringing in a host of yr 11 players. But this has not proven to be successful. This year they seem to have brought players into the 13's, 14's and 15's. After two rounds these teams have won more matches than last year. The 15's BBC team also knocked off the previously unbeaten Nudgee team.

I am not aware of how many scholarships or easier entry facilitation has gone on here or anywhere else, but I would think that taking a longer term view would be a better approach to an issue that will never go away.

 

[Quick Hands]

I have watched this thread for a while now. In recent years it has been very NSW/ Sydney centric. That is probably because the divide between the schools that do and the schools that don't is too large and because of the amount of scholarships handed out as the boys get to the pointy end of their time at school.

In QLD scholarships have been in vogue for just as long but does not seem to generate as much heartache and angst. Some schools on the end of some beltings raised some concerns about safety about four years ago which got the QLD rugby forums firing but it has been fairly quiet by comparison since.

In the QLD GPS thread I made comment on how some schools have invested a little in talent and a lot in coaching to close gaps in the lower age groups (u13's and u14's). From recent results this has seemed to closed the gap between teams and some traditional lopsided results have disappeared. I thought that could only be for the good of the game.

But the observation has also raised the dreaded spectre of scholarships.

I am neither here nor there on scholarships. Managed well and done properly it provides the beneficiaries many opportunities that they would not usually have. Done callously it can be devisive and cause angst to all involved.

It now appears that some schools who were more known for an influx of talent in yr 11 are now taking a longer term view. An example, but far from being the only school is BBC.

Last year BBC won two or three A / First XV matches in all of its age groups. In the past they have tried to paper over the cracks by bringing in a host of yr 11 players. But this has not proven to be successful. This year they seem to have brought players into the 13's, 14's and 15's. After two rounds these teams have won more matches than last year. The 15's BBC team also knocked off the previously unbeaten Nudgee team.

I am not aware of how many scholarships or easier entry facilitation has gone on here or anywhere else, but I would think that taking a longer term view would be a better approach to an issue that will never go away.

I guess but one of the issues that arise in the NSW GPS is that all of the schools in the assocation have a code of coduct agreed to by all which specifically prohibits enrolment policies which target talented sportsmen through things such as scholarships or bursaries.

When some schools abide by their own rules and others don't, ii not only breeds resentment, but produces lopsided results. Of the 8 Sydney based GPS schools 2 can no longer field a team in the 1st XV competition and a third school is heading that way.

If schools which boast unrivalled facilities and top class coaching cannot develop their own talent in 6 years - who can?

 

[Tight head Lion]

The best premiership technology money can buy.
Nice facility.
http://instagram.com/p/bU1NyJlci3/#

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The best premiership technology money can buy.
Nice facility.
http://instagram.com/p/bU1NyJlci3/#

Is that real snow?

 

[Brian Westlake]

The best premiership technology money can buy.
Nice facility.
http://instagram.com/p/bU1NyJlci3/#

Oh Sarge....

 

[GTPIH]

The best premiership technology money can buy.
Nice facility.
http://instagram.com/p/bU1NyJlci3/#

It is a nice facility used by ALL sports at Scots. As a parent I'm glad the school provides state of the art facilities. I don't see you criticising the 2-3 pools at Kings, the new library at Newington or even the Science and Technology Centre at Scots.

 

[lincoln]

A

It is a nice facility used by ALL sports at Scots. As a parent I'm glad the school provides state of the art facilities. I don't see you criticising the 2-3 pools at Kings, the new library at Newington or even the Science and Technology Centre at Scots.

As a parent absolutely agree - great that our kids have access to the best facilities - hopefully some of the non-bursary kids at Scots turn from year 7 fatties into GPS champs like my son at a less well equipped school did. Seriously, that is what we should celebrate - the 13 nothing kid that blossoms - all credit to the school when it happens.

 

[Jaghond]

Read it again: this scots team is reasonably organic.
If you dont understand that let me know and I'll break it down into something you can manage.

Thanks IS,

I actually GOT the sarcasm in your response, and believe i have a grasp of the concept of "reasonableness" - just wanted to ensure that you weren't choking on a furball - having to actually acknowledge that a demonstrably good peformance can actually eminate from an "organic" team !

The wail of the Bagpipes drifting over the hill your way must be starting to get to you....

However, I wish you & the Grammar side(s) a successful season, and actually hope they are back in 1's - where they belong - sooner, rather than later.

Sincerely
The Hound

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Thanks IS,

I actually GOT the sarcasm in your response, and believe i have a grasp of the concept of "reasonableness" - just wanted to ensure that you weren't choking on a furball - having to actually acknowledge that a demonstrably good peformance can actually eminate from an "organic" team !

The wail of the Bagpipes drifting over the hill your way must be starting to get to you..

However, I wish you & the Grammar side(s) a successful season, and actually hope they are back in 1's - where they belong - sooner, rather than later.

Sincerely
The Hound

The sarcasm was all in your imagination - that's the problem with jumping in: sometimes you see things that aren't there.
I love the pipes (only outside) but the nor easter tends to prevent them carrying.
I always try to be fair and to root out hypocrisy wherever it may appear.
It seems you really did miss the point of the last line of the post.

 

[Jaghond]

The best premiership technology money can buy.
Nice facility.
http://instagram.com/p/bU1NyJlci3/#

Time to put away the acrimony THL/Sarge.

Enjoy the boys rugby for what it is - and leave the other stuff alone.

Hope you will be at Hunters Hill on Saturday for what promises to be another cracker of a match - between 2 worthy opponents.

It should be a great contest .

 

[Jaghond]

I love the pipes.
I Always try to be fair and to root out hypocrisy wherever it may appear.

I hope that you didn't infer my coments re a return to successful sport competitiveness by the SGS lads as some form of hypocrisy - absolutely the opposite, I can assure you.

I, along with many others no doubt, was on the wrong side of the ledger having been "dealt with" by some fantastic and extremely gifted SGS athletes in the 70's.....cricket, rugby, athletics, debating, etc and I am fortunate enough to be able to add some life long friendships that have developed therefrom.

Sincerity is often masked - or non existent - on many of these pages - please accept that this was actually the way it was intended.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I hope that you didn't infer my coments re a return to successful sport competitiveness by the SGS lads as some form of hypocrisy - absolutely the opposite, I can assure you.

I, along with many others no doubt, was on the wrong side of the ledger having been "dealt with" by some fantastic and extremely gifted SGS athletes in the 70's...cricket, rugby, athletics, debating, etc and I am fortunate enough to be able to add some life long friendships that have developed therefrom.

Sincerity is often masked - or non existent - on many of these pages - please accept that this was actually the way it was intended.

I didn't take it that way.
The hypocrisy concerns being a signatory to a code of conduct that is ignored.
Arguably worse, at least morally, is that the breach is cloaked in weasel words and phrases such as "leadership scholarships" to hide the reality.
As the boys call them "triangle scholarships". The boys know what's what - partly because many of the parents cannot wait to tell other parents and since you evidently have a connection to TSC you must have heard them boasting - I hasten to add not in the opens.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

TSC has boys in the Ones that are enjoying the benefits of discounted education. They are not as organic as some would promote in their haste to castigate the practices of others.

As has been said time and time again on this thread, there are very few schools who comply with the intent of the AAGPS Code of Conduct agreement on inducements.

On the radio the other day, it was identified that Tom Kingston (Aloys old boy apparently) has a 99.9 ATAR score. Clearly he is a good rugby player and talented athlete, as well as being rather adept at doing well academically.

It matters little what were the funding arrangements surrounding his education, but for the purposes of discussion, consider a future hypothetical Tom Kingston clone (FHTKC).

Is our FHTKC allowed to accept an (partial of full discounted) academic scholarship AND play A's/1st XV rugby without the accusations of the School being in breach of the agreement and snide remarks about Triangle Scholarships when the lad makes NSW Schools?

The waters get muddied when we move into the socially disadvantaged scholarships/busaries.

Is a School in breach of the AAGPS Code when they offer a place to a boy who's family would not normally be able to afford a place at an expensive private school?
Should boys on any economically disadvantaged Scholarships be banned from playing age group "A"s or 1st XV rugby? This would just reinforce the stigma associated with Mum and Dad turning up in the 15 year old Commodore S/W instead of a late model Beemer like the rest of the Richie Rich's.

 

[Spieber]

A
hopefully some of the non-bursary kids at Scots turn from year 7 fatties into GPS champs like my son at a less well equipped school did. Seriously, that is what we should celebrate - the 13 nothing kid that blossoms - all credit to the school when it happens.

OK I'll play this game - albeit a couple of years ago now but 3 boys in 2009 Shore 8 (winners) were in the 6th Yr8 quad, and two boys from the 13 nothings/16E's were in the 2008 GPS rugby squad.
Ok Scots/New tell us about your successes.

 

[Crazy Legs]

Hope you got out there Crazy Legs to watch me live my dream!!!!!! Wasn t me playing rugby but Seeing my son happy, playing some great quality rugby in a great atmosphere, where parents are happy to see other kids do well, rather than whinge and whine. Sounds a bit like one of the many disgruntled parents previously encounter.

RM, being stuck up here near the Qld border over recent years doesn't allow me the opportunity to watch you or Jr live your dream and must admit you have lost me with the "disgruntled parents previously encounter" As a former NSWJRU representative in 1992 I still watch our great game with interest although with a daughter playing Netball I have used this forum as one of my avenues to keep abreast of the latest news. What I have found with but the schoolboy threads although flush with great discussions at times contain either blatant self promotion or responses such as your recent comments here or again on the Sydney v Country thread which give could give the impression that you are a little bitter? Perhaps the site moderator should be a little more vigilant, after all G&G was created as a forum for open discussion and offering oppinions without fear of persecution. It was also noted that no reply was directed to the member who originally posted the comments regarding the Central Coast Rugby Mum and the full scholarship to TSC.

 

[I like to watch]

TSC has boys in the Ones that are enjoying the benefits of discounted education. They are not as organic as some would promote in their haste to castigate the practices of others.

As has been said time and time again on this thread, there are very few schools who comply with the intent of the AAGPS Code of Conduct agreement on inducements.

On the radio the other day, it was identified that Tom Kingston (Aloys old boy apparently) has a 99.9 ATAR score. Clearly he is a good rugby player and talented athlete, as well as being rather adept at doing well academically.

It matters little what were the funding arrangements surrounding his education, but for the purposes of discussion, consider a future hypothetical Tom Kingston clone (FHTKC).

Is our FHTKC allowed to accept an (partial of full discounted) academic scholarship AND play A's/1st XV rugby without the accusations of the School being in breach of the agreement and snide remarks about Triangle Scholarships when the lad makes NSW Schools?

The waters get muddied when we move into the socially disadvantaged scholarships/busaries.

Is a School in breach of the AAGPS Code when they offer a place to a boy who's family would not normally be able to afford a place at an expensive private school?
Should boys on any economically disadvantaged Scholarships be banned from playing age group "A"s or 1st XV rugby? This would just reinforce the stigma associated with Mum and Dad turning up in the 15 year old Commodore S/W instead of a late model Beemer like the rest of the Richie Rich's.

Hugh you are dribbling.Tom Kingston doing well at School and Rugby at the Rugby minnow School he attended from yr 7,has got fuck all to do with this topic.As does economically disadvantaged families who enrol in yr 7.
This topic is about Schools who cheat by importing.They normally recruit in years 9 and 10.That's the topic big guy!Just focus on the late comers who excel and have no other apparent skills.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

TSC has boys in the Ones that are enjoying the benefits of discounted education. They are not as organic as some would promote in their haste to castigate the practices of others.

As has been said time and time again on this thread, there are very few schools who comply with the intent of the AAGPS Code of Conduct agreement on inducements.

On the radio the other day, it was identified that Tom Kingston (Aloys old boy apparently) has a 99.9 ATAR score. Clearly he is a good rugby player and talented athlete, as well as being rather adept at doing well academically.

It matters little what were the funding arrangements surrounding his education, but for the purposes of discussion, consider a future hypothetical Tom Kingston clone (FHTKC).

Is our FHTKC allowed to accept an (partial of full discounted) academic scholarship AND play A's/1st XV rugby without the accusations of the School being in breach of the agreement and snide remarks about Triangle Scholarships when the lad makes NSW Schools?

The waters get muddied when we move into the socially disadvantaged scholarships/busaries.

Is a School in breach of the AAGPS Code when they offer a place to a boy who's family would not normally be able to afford a place at an expensive private school?
Should boys on any economically disadvantaged Scholarships be banned from playing age group "A"s or 1st XV rugby? This would just reinforce the stigma associated with Mum and Dad turning up in the 15 year old Commodore S/W instead of a late model Beemer like the rest of the Richie Rich's.

I think you overlook the fact that, as far as I am aware, no one criticises the boys or the parents for taking such an offer.
The point is not whether any given scholarship can be justified on academic, musical or other non-sport grounds.
The point is whether it was offered to the particular boy because of his sporting prowess.
This is why I keep saying its a moral issue. One needs to examine one's own conscience to find one's position.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Absolutely agree about the moral aspects. WRT Kingston (or hypothetical clone) that may land a "proper" advertised and competed for on a level playing field Academic Scholarship, there would still be those that would claim he was at School <insert name here> on Scholarship because of his rugby prowess.

I don't criticise anyone for taking advantage of an offer of subsidised education, and only wish that a few more came Chez Jarse way.

I am concerned about the knock on effect that the offering (and acceptance) of these is having on CHS, CCC, Country and Village Club rugby.

Here is a moral moot with respect to the AAGPS Code.
You are head of a School, with sound Christian values. You have a bob or two set aside to provide a good Christian education for a family in the local area who would not normally be able to afford to sent their son to your school. Your school prides itself on using Athletic endeavour to promote values of team work, fair play and character building.
There are two boys who are to all intents and purposes equally deserving of receiving the position at your School, apart from their attitude towards sports.
Do you award it to the boy who shows more athletic prowess, or the boy who is not interested in any sort of sport?

The original intent of the "Scholarship" is for charitable reasons.
A sporty kid would probably be a better fit for your School than a non sporty kid.
Athletically talented kids would fancy their chances of landing the scholarship, so would be over represented in the applications for said scholarship.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Hugh you are dribbling.Tom Kingston doing well at School and Rugby at the Rugby minnow School he attended from yr 7,has got fuck all to do with this topic.As does economically disadvantaged families who enrol in yr 7.
This topic is about Schools who cheat by importing.They normally recruit in years 9 and 10.That's the topic big guy!Just focus on the late comers who excel and have no other apparent skills.

If I have given any suggestion that Tom Kingston was on any form of scholarship, I apologise. That was not my intent. I was just using the fact that it is possible for a Rugby player to be superbly talented academically as well, which Tom clearly was. I have no idea if he was on a scholarship or not, and it matters little to my discussion point what were his schooling arrangements, as I said in the OP.

My discussion was based on another <hypothetical> kid who sometime in the future may be as academically talented as Tom, and who also happens to be also a good athlete.

In terms of your point about scholarships from year 7. The AAGPS code on sporting scholarships does not provide an exclusion if the boy has been on an athletic scholarship since year 7. It is a blanket statement that all Heads of Schools are allegedly morally obliged to uphold as a foundation principle of the Association.

Edit: Missing "Not" added in to last paragraph. <embarrassment>

 

[I like to watch]

Which of the 11 Newington kids that participated on the Oz champs,who were ALL latecomers to New, fit into your hypothetical scenario?