Selection politics and bias, Gold Squads unfairness etc.

[Lee Grant]

There is a need for a semi-professional open age comps in both codes below the NRL and SuperRugby, to bring on skilled and mature footballers.

Amen - we are sending elite youngsters ".. into this breathing world, scarce half made up..'' of Super Rugby to learn their trade on the job. The squads take the punt on them because mature depth is so skinny, that they elect to grow their own from kidnapped school leavers.

If we could afford another ARC, which we can't, mature hard heads could prove themselves at a higher level than club rugby and get into Super Rugby from that. Presently it is too difficult for franchises to assess these blokes: for every Fardy you get 5 duds; so it's better to get a young star and groom him before somebody else grabs him.

Fardy himself was not that noticeable when he was picked by the Force a while back. It was really before his hard head time. 4-5 years ago he would have appreciated an ARC and got to being an effective Super Player before this year.

Now and then you get a player like Pyle straight from his club into Super Rugby and playing at an elite level from Yr.1, without an ARC, but that is uncommon. Usually they are the cream of players who have been tried for a year or two and the others get discarded. How wasteful of contract spots is that?



This is getting away from the politics and bias. I would like to see more lads from CHS and minor rugby states get in Oz schools teams so they can get treated a year or two later on even terms, but there is a Catch-22 situation as regards CHS in NSW. A lot of the best players get "recruited" by the private schools, whether through old boys or not; so their elite player pool is diminished. Players like McIntyre are getting rarer.

Once these lads are "recruited" they are tarred by the private schools brush.

There are a lot of snide comments about the privates schools system in Oz and probably 80/20 from people who didn't go to one or had a son who did so.

But do they think that Oz rugby would be better off without privates schools from a theoretical point of view? Do they think we can transport the system of a small country like NZ with a lack of footie alternatives, and with it's historical 20 odd unions who can do comprehensive analyses of schools and junior players in each region without a big emphasis on private schools rugby?

Should critics not think that by getting good rugby players into private schools we will get more players in a net where they can thrive as rugby players, and keep more of them in our code than otherwise? And would we not get the odd one like Tomane coming back since he had a taste which he may not have had otherwise?

Should we not, rather, do better in what can be done for the school players outside of the private school system instead of dismantling it, or saying something facile like schools should not recruit players ?



I take the point that it is harder for a lad from a lesser school association team, or a lesser rugby state, to be assessed on a level selection field. I also take the point that trials where all the boys are mixed up is better, but that is never going to happen where school associations are involved. It's like my wish for an ARC.

More to the point than critical remarks from folks, I would like to see specifics of how to get disadvantaged school players and school leavers, especially Colts, into the elite system. Clubs already tender applications of young players from both Colts and Grade for the National Academy, but what else can be done?
.

 

[Hugie]

My view is that the private schools and Sydney Uni are resented because they have business models that work. So try to mimic the models that work.

As I see it the private schools model revolves around 3 things:

1. They market elite and exclusive i.e they provide the best and if you want the best for your son you have to come to us (and pay).
2. The costing to the schools is marginal, they have to employ teachers, they have gyms, they have the school grounds. The actual on costs/cash flows, are minimal.
3. Rugby is a team sport that improves with practice and playing a lot of hard graded games. This means good team rugby will always overcome individual talent. It also means that talented individual mungoes will always look bad against experienced rugby players of lesser talent, meaning talented mungoes don't get selected because they just look bad in a rugby game. Making it the idea marketing ploy for the private schools.

These basic principles also apply to Sydney University (but more so) as they have acedemic departments studying elite sports, sports physiology etc etc and post graduate students wanting to do research on real people. So again they have something to offer that is very marginal in costing but creates a marketing perception that Sydney Uni is some elite institution that you just have to go to to succeed.

It seems to me that these principles can be roled out via other Unversities that also want to create the image of being an elite institution. This would be done by forming alliances with districts like:

• University of New England and the New England district.
• Newcastle uni: Hunter
• Penrith :UWS
• Macquarie Uni: Eastwood
• Etc

The costs to the Unversities would be marginal (they already have buses, gyms, college accomodation), they would offer scholarships and special pathways etc. (the unversities could offer to teach the mungoes to count higher than 6 and to say "I" when they're talking about themselves as the subject of a sentence).

They would need naming rights (a la Canbera Uni and the Brumbies).

In other words start taking rugby down the US model of high school, to College, to pro football. Where the colleges use football to market themselves (as do GPS schools and Sydney Uni).

 

[whatever]

What about a state based comp/s (run from March to Sept), let's say, 4 from Sydney (East, West, South and North) plus 1 Newcastle - North Coast, Illawarra - South Coast, ACT, 1 Western Academy financed by Melbourne. The same could be organised for Qld with a Western Force Academy side. Or is this the ARC again?

Haven't considered the logistics or finance but surely it is better then what currently is in place.

 

[I like to watch]

But do they think that Oz rugby would be better off without privates schools from a theoretical point of view? Do they think we can transport the system of a small country like NZ with a lack of footie alternatives, and with it's historical 20 odd unions who can do comprehensive analyses of schools and junior players in each region without a big emphasis on private schools rugby?

Should critics not think that by getting good rugby players into private schools we will get more players in a net where they can thrive as rugby players, and keep more of them in our code than otherwise? And would we not get the odd one like Tomane coming back since he had a taste which he may not have had otherwise?

The point for me is that ATM the GPS system (predominantly) is corralling these elite players into their competition,insisting they ONLY play in this comp.Yet the comp goes for 5 weeks!
They also insist that these elite players are not to concentrate on this sport until the school have finished their athletics/rowing seasons.The gatekeepers (GPS) for elite Rugby talent interests are not aligned with the best development of juniors.What other sport does the most significant nursery openly restrict pre season training?

It worked great when the rest of the world developed their youth with no particular structure.That is no longer the case, and to keep up you need to change the way things are done.
The CAS & ISA systems are also less than ideal with normally 2 dominant teams, meaning they have one meaningful matchup in their relative competitions.
By all means keep the school associations in the younger years. But from 16 on combine them and run divisions so that ALL teams are well matched, and the season will go for at least 10 or so weeks.

 

[dermo]

The point for me is that ATM the GPS system (predominantly) is corralling these elite players into their competition,insisting they ONLY play in this comp.Yet the comp goes for 5 weeks!
They also insist that these elite players are not to concentrate on this sport until the school have finished their athletics/rowing seasons.The gatekeepers (GPS) for elite Rugby talent interests are not aligned with the best development of juniors.What other sport does the most significant nursery openly restrict pre season training?

It worked great when the rest of the world developed their youth with no particular structure.That is no longer the case, and to keep up you need to change the way things are done.
The CAS & ISA systems are also less than ideal with normally 2 dominant teams, meaning they have one meaningful matchup in their relative competitions.
By all means keep the school associations in the younger years. But from 16 on combine them and run divisions so that ALL teams are well matched, and the season will go for at least 10 or so weeks.

What are these restrictions? Keeping in mind that pre season training is made up mostly of gym and fitness and rowing has plenty of this

 

[CTPE]

The gatekeepers (GPS) for elite Rugby talent interests are not aligned with the best development of juniors.

But isn't the question...... should they be?

What's often forgotton in this whole debate is that the GPS schools are private organisations that have been playing rugby between themselves for 120 years. Their primary aim is to be successful in their own competition just like any other sporting groups wish to do. They have never been deputised by the ARU, the NSWRU or the SRU to be incubators for rugby talent or the development of juniors. They do however ultimately play a substantial role in developing rugby talent - whether "home grown" or "imported" - and spend a significant amount of their resources in doing so.....much more than any of the aforementioned unions or the State government via NSW High Schools -Whilst it's probably for another thread but have a look at how the NSW Education Dept has totally abdicated its role in facilitating the development of all sports in Comprehensive State High Schools comparative to the role sport played in them 30+ years ago. In comparison the UK now has government funded Rugby Academy Schools whose facilities would make most GPS schools blush in embarrassment.

As a rugby nut I'm appreciative of the fact that in 1892 the AAGPS chose to make rugby rather than soccer their agreed sport for winter competition. CAS did likewise in 1929 - in the absence of both of them doing so would the game we all love really be played at the level it is today in Oz?

 

[It is what it is]

CTPE, all credit to anyone, any school or group of schools that help in the development of Australian rugby.
That certainly includes GPS & CAS.
I think most people are saying there could be a better way to do it, not throw the baby out with the bath water.
In the absence of any genuine pathway provided by the ARU or State bodies, the idea of 'the best of the best' performing rugby schools playing each other has appeal.
I am amazed that the seasons are so short in some of these current competitions so maybe this could be facilitated.

 

[CTPE]

In the absence of any genuine pathway provided by the ARU or State bodies, the idea of 'the best of the best' performing rugby schools playing each other has appeal.

I hear what your saying IIWII but understand that they've been doing what they're doing for 120 years... and realistically being private independent organisations first and foremost they have no obligation nor desire to do other than compete against each other in pursuit of premiership glory and nobody...not the ARU, NSWRU, NSWRU, CRU or SRU can change that tradition. They throw the most resources at the game at U13 - U18 levels for their own benefit and specific goals and a by product of that is that they consistently deliver the most players who are successful at both junior schoolboys and senior rep level.

 

[I like to watch]

No one disputes that the game would be much poorer without the participation of GPS & CAS Schools historically. That's not the point.
Let the GPS continue to play amongst themselves if that makes you happy, but combine every other School into a meaningful competition with divisions to enable competitive matches across the city for more than a month.
Pick all Schoolboy rep teams out of this comp, the good players will migrate to Schools that are aligned with the interests of the code.
I read an earlier post that suggested their is over 8,000 teenage boys playing the game.
Yet there is not one reasonable competition for anyone aged 16 -18, there is no justification for maintaining the status quo.

 

[CTPE]

ILTW its not a matter of what makes me happy.....it's just the reality of it all.

The School competition excluding GPS & CAS proposed has merit but it won't happen unless CCC, IAS, ACIES and CHS all agree to be involved - even if that can be overcome which entity is going to organise and resource it?

 

[Newbie]

... ... ... ... ... ...[LG referring to NSWCHS] A lot of the best players get "recruited" by the private schools, whether through old boys or not; so their elite player pool is diminished. Players like McIntyre are getting rarer. Once these lads are "recruited" they are tarred by the private schools brush.

There are a lot of snide comments about the privates schools system in Oz
... ... ... ... ... ... Should critics not think that by getting good rugby players into private schools we will get more players in a net where they can thrive as rugby players, and keep more of them in our code than otherwise?

LG in my assessment you are correct! Without Private School recruitment Rugby would defiantly be the worse off, because IMO 9 out of every 10 McIntyre's would generally walk the path path of Clinton Gutherson at the ASSRL this week!

Nevertheless I will qualify my above mentioned statement with the following; such recruitment is generally motivated by self interest (i.e. for the betterment of the school first XV) and therefore the relationship is one of 'quid pro quo' or symbiotic in nature!

Thank God for 'Macquarie Bank Scholarships' in other instances and to the Brothers up on the Hill who I have been told are able to influence them, or so I have been informed

 

[I like to watch]

ILTW its not a matter of what makes me happy...it's just the reality of it all.

The School competition excluding GPS & CAS proposed has merit but it won't happen unless CCC, IAS, ACIES and CHS all agree to be involved - even if that can be overcome which entity is going to organise and resource it?

The whole point would be to amalgamate all the School comps, not to add a division to the ISA comp.You don't rationalise why you would possibly exclude GPS & CAS?
Still waiting for you to tell me where a 17 year old can play a full season of football in a strong competition anywhere in this state.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Sydney Colts, 2nd or 3rd grade would be appropriate.

 

[no9]

Unfortunately this debate will aimlessly go on (great intentions and all) until there is an epiphany at ARU headquarters and you get an administration that drags all the associations (States, provinces, metro, schools, zones, districts, clubs and schools), kicking and screaming if neccessary, in under one rule and administers the game accordingly. The gratuitous stuff about pathways and developing the game is all rubbish when you have different parts of the game deciding whats best for them at the expense of anyone else (any action on the Garling report there JON?). If some areas of the sport don't want to toe the line in what is deemed the best interest of all then impose whatever sanctions are required to change that way of thinking. Reduced funding is the obvious start along with non selection into representative sides (you can't represent what you don't participate in) and non supply of referees/officials.

I'm not proportioning blame here on the GPS as they are merely working to the current rules but common sense says that for the game to grow (if you don't then you die) there has to be a wider involvement of players at all levels in good competetive play. Scorelines of 100+ to nil are an embarressment not to the conquered school but to the game itself. It is further evidence of the erosion of playing stock within the sport and the concentration of talent into a smaller pond. Administrators of the past 10 to 20 years should be embarrassed and ashamed that they have allowed this to eventuate. Results such as Scotland and Samoa plus the U20's debacle are evidence that the current systems are not effective and will become the norm rather than the exception if not attended to.

Thank you to CTPE for supplying his breakdown of school participation statistics but the reality is that of the supposed top 46 players within NSW over half of them came from one school association and that is not in the best interest of the game. Yes, it's in the best interest of the GPS, but who is running the game? If regularly exposed to higher levels of competetive play, I have no doubt that other schools would attain these levels quickly. Evidence of this can be seen each week at Colts level where many of the non association players catch up to and then outperform some of their more highly regarded team mates and opposition.

Of the 3 Saturday playing association competitions the contenders are limited to in some cases only 2 schools. Tradition is great but it has to start somewhere, ask the ARL how State of Origin was perceived in it's early years to what it has become today. The options available to achieve a competetive schools competition structure are for another time. With the spineless nature of rugby's administration nothing will be happening in the short term anyway. As a sport, rugby is disengaging its supporter base bit by bit and continuing to overly embrace elitism over community is the perception of many who reside in the west of Sydney.

For those who don't care about those who reside outside of the north and east of Sydney ask yourself why do your beloved institutes of tradition have to keep importing players from outside the catchment areas to bolster the claim of superiority. Perhaps the spectre of High and Grammar is shadowing your own hallowed grounds.

 

[no9]

Sydney Colts, 2nd or 3rd grade would be appropriate.

Rules out any school players which I think is the point of most of ILTW's post.

 

[Lindommer]

As a rugby nut I'm appreciative of the fact that in 1892 the AAGPS chose to make rugby rather than soccer the Australian game their agreed sport for winter competition.

fixed

Riverview and Joeys dabbled in the game played to Victorian rules in the 1890s for a few years before plumping for rugby.

 

[I like to watch]

Sydney Colts, 2nd or 3rd grade would be appropriate.

Regarding 2nds colts,I'm not sure a under 20's competition is appropriate for a 16 y/o(under17) in a city of this size.
Seriously 3rd colts?
Ever watched it?
Even the participants know it is a joke, and say it loud and often.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Rules out any school players which I think is the point of most of ILTW's post.

Surely it only rules out the Saturday rugby playing schools players. For kids not involved in that, such as CCC or CHS individual players it must be a better option than playing in a "weak" 14 game SJRU competition.

Plenty of tough winner takes all, no show pony fawning attitude in Colts.
If Shute Shield Colts teams are full, then try higher divisions of Subbies Colts.

AFAIK there are a number of lads from Saturday rugby playing schools knocking about in Colts 3rds when they are not required for schools (school holidays etc).

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Regarding 2nds colts,I'm not sure a under 20's competition is appropriate for a 16 y/o(under17) in a city of this size.
Seriously 3rd colts?
Ever watched it?
Even the participants know it is a joke, and say it loud and often.

Your initial question was where would a 17 year old go for a full season of strong rugby, not an Under 17 (16 year old).

 

[I like to watch]

Semantics, the only viable option should not be that you have to play guys 2 years older to get a game of reasonable standard if you are 17.
If you are 16 where do you go to play in a strong competition?
That's the point.There is nowhere in either Schools or Village.