South Africa to reintroduce quotas

[Ruggo]

Ruggo, i never said reverse racism doesn't hurt
What parts of Australia are like the shanty towns South Africa?

I don't presume to have much of a knowledge on shanty towns in SA but if you want examples of the less than third world standards in Australia, there are many indigenous communities or outstations as they are often called across northern and central Australia.

Let's get one thing straight, my comments are not an attack on one individual. Reverse quota's are racist and that is my only message.

Regarding SA rugby, from the outside looking in, it appears they have plenty of players worthy of the elite level despite their race. Maybe someone in the know has more to say on the state of play.

 

[TOCC]

Fair enough Ruggo, i just think that as Australians we can be quick to criticise other countries on such topics without fully understanding the issues that they are faced in attempting to stamp out racism. My knowledge is limited to a few books, and even then those books are written from the perspective of the author so I've never witnessed the issue first hand. But i tend to think that the complexity of the issue may require a big gesture or piece of legislation such as the quota.

South Africa still has racism rife at all levels, and i don't think it's manageable purely through means though means of equality or anti-discrimination measures like in Australia, the problem is to widespread to refer each case to tribunal, reviews or court.

Many Australians may think the quota is reverse racism but this view is based on our experiences and understand of racial inequality within Australia, I think we need to examine the reasons as to why they are implementing such measures, the racist reputation that the springbok team has historically represented, setting an example at the highest level in hopes it will set a precedence of acceptance that will filter down to other levels, a symbolic gesture at the highest level of white South Africa that discrimination and racism are unacceptable.. But also one for the black population that the opportunities are there, that racial discrimination can't be an excuse for exclusion from those teams, that there are goals for the black population to work towards in a historically white dominated sport.

 

[Blue]

This is the umpteenth iteration of quota talk although this time the alarm bells are really ringing.

I have learnt to wait and see what happens. You just don't know what will come of this.

TOCC good observations although the quota thing is more often than not used as a populist political tool, as it is very much in this instance as South Africa has elections very soon.

All too often this originates from radical factions inside the ANC or from a radical politician, as it has once again in this instance.

SARU seems to be singing to the poltician's tune though so something will come of this. What it is remains to be seen.

SANZAR will be completely within its right to question the validity of the alliance if any directive could conceivably weaken SA teams.

With SANZAR negotiations happening before long, this is going to make things more interesting. Or farcical.

Go Brumbies. Go Bulls. Go Brumbies. G B...more syllables but it's a big animal so that will help bit....think I could wear horns walking around Canberra?

 

[Scoey]

There is no argument to be had here. Regardless of what country this occurs in or what knowledge we have of the issues faced.
Prejudice or favouritism based purely on the colour of a persons skin is racism.
How any government can hope to stamp out racism by racist means is beyond comprehension.
You don't put out a fire by blasting water at the tips of the flames; you hit it at the base.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[en_force_er]

For me the obvious solution is take a heap of money and spend it on youth programs to develop black players. Get Jake White running clinics for black kids in the off season.

Sure, I'm not crazy about the idea of black kids getting development opportunities that white kids don't but the fact of the matter is elite players needs to be picked because they're the elite and not because of skin colour, whereas you can develop players for any reason you want.

 

[Blue]

For me the obvious solution is take a heap of money and spend it on youth programs to develop black players. Get Jake White running clinics for black kids in the off season.

Sure, I'm not crazy about the idea of black kids getting development opportunities that white kids don't but the fact of the matter is elite players needs to be picked because they're the elite and not because of skin colour, whereas you can develop players for any reason you want.

There has been a LOT of money spent at the grassroots level over the last 10 to 20 years but SARU has never been particularly good at managing anything hence the lack of players coming through. It seems as if it's mainly left up to the Unions themselves, and some have been poor and others better. There seems to be a lot of black players in the Vodacom Cup and Club tournaments this year but few graduate to Super level. I don't know why not. I don't suspect anyone really does else something better would surely have been done by now.

It is an immensely difficult thing though. I think people underestimate the complexity.

I still maintain that to a large extent rugby will never be a preferred sport for the black masses in SA which has to be a consideration but you won't hear SARU or the politicians ever admitting this. That will be suicidal.

 

[Braveheart81]

Quotas in any aspect of life are designed to speed up a process that would otherwise take a lot longer to achieve organically.

You can only reasonably establish a quota when there is a belief that representation isn't being achieved fairly based on either discrimination or lack of opportunity or a bit of both.

If you look at black players currently playing Super Rugby or test rugby for South Africa, it's hard to pinpoint any who don't deserve to be there. Raising a quota to a manageable level of say 30% (which would involve most Super Rugby sides selecting 2 or 3 more black players based on last weekend's teams) would hardly remove huge amounts of opportunity from white players however it would create an appreciable increase in opportunity for black players.

As Blue indicates above, if there are much higher representations of black players at lower levels such as Varsity Cup but they're not getting selected for the professional contracts then perhaps there is an issue of racism that needs to be formerly addressed.

The whole reverse racism argument sounds pretty powerful on paper, but when you look at the reality anywhere, it's pretty hard to find whichever dominant group who were going to be on the wrong end of a quota system struggling for opportunity.

 

[ChargerWA]

I'd be interested to see what the ratios currently are. Looking at the Super teams I would suggest they are either at the 7 player mark each, or only 1 off (obviously dependent on the team chosen each week). Having a quick count of the Bulls players during the warm up on Saturday night they had 7 black players in their 23. Including 2 forwards.

 

[Spieber]

South Africa still has racism rife at all levels, and i don't think it's manageable purely through means though means of equality or anti-discrimination measures like in Australia, the problem is to widespread to refer each case to tribunal, reviews or court.

Many Australians may think the quota is reverse racism but this view is based on our experiences and understand of racial inequality within Australia, I think we need to examine the reasons as to why they are implementing such measures, the racist reputation that the springbok team has historically represented, setting an example at the highest level in hopes it will set a precedence of acceptance that will filter down to other levels, a symbolic gesture at the highest level of white South Africa that discrimination and racism are unacceptable.. But also one for the black population that the opportunities are there, that racial discrimination can't be an excuse for exclusion from those teams, that there are goals for the black population to work towards in a historically white dominated sport.

Meanwhile President Zuma adds another wing to his house.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/29/jacob-zuma-accused-corruption-south-africa

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Laurie Mains, who was very much pro-quota when coach of the Cats, thinks they're no longer needed & will be the end of the 'boks as a force in world rugby:

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springboks/quota-system-will-end-bok-glory-days-mains-20160727

Short version: If they're 50% "players of colour" by decree rather than ability at RWC 2019 they'll struggle to make the QF. Can't say I disagree.

 

[Braveheart81]

I wonder if a quota at Springbok level will result in a short term drop but a long term gain?

Personally I think that a quota is valid at a lower level (i.e. use the quota to create professional opportunities and then with that same opportunity let the best players rise to the top).

There's no doubt that there are now substantially more players of colour who are in and around the Springbok squad purely on merit than there were just a few years ago.

Maybe a quota at Springbok level now will be disastrous for the 2019 RWC but it could easily pay dividends for the 2023 RWC.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Ive read a few books on the apartheid era and modern day racial issues in South Africa, and i think the complexity of the issue makes it vey difficult for Australians to grasp given the extremity of the issue.

Introducing a quota system in Australia could be deemed reverse racism given Australia comparatively has a much smaller equality gap between indigenous australians and white australians, but the complexity of racial issues and equality in South Africa may make it a necessary ruling.

Couldn't the quota "system" be engaged here. Plenty of PI lads get the gig. Should Australian rugby pick players on a percentage basis according to their ethnicity ?

Short answer is fuck no. We are all Australian (if you are an Australian citizen), irrespective of where you originated from.

I firmly believe however, that you must be an Australian citizen to play for your national side. It frankly gives me the shits that a kiwi passport holder can play for Australia.

 

[Blue]

Braveheart I think you underestimate the reality.

"Half of the Springboks' squad will have to be players of colour by 2019, according to transformation plans revealed in South African Sunday newspaper Rapport. In addition, 60% of that number will be required to be black Africans"

So that means that of the 23, 11/12 need to be of color, with 7 to 8 of those Africans.

Just think for a second. That's effectively two seasons from now.

7/8 Africans in the 23. Where are they? Mvovo, Mtwarira, Kolisi, Mapoe, Nyakana, Notshe?, Ntubeni, Mohoje?

Three of these players on this list can truly be included now on merit - Beast, Nyakane, Mapoe. The others are NOT international standard. Good Super players but not test players. Kolisi and Mvovo have been awful in a Bok jumper. Plain woeful. the last three on the list are unproven and in my opinion would not make any other extended international test squad.

Somehow four new African guys have to be proven in the next two years to be up to it. There is a VERY small list of REAL candidates. This is the problem. Not the handful of guys that should be there. The complete lack of depth to really choose from.

As for the "colored" players we have Habana (old), de Allende (up and down like a yo-yo), Pietersen (over the hill), Jantjes, Skosaan (yes please for the last two).

I think it's a scary picture. The Bok coach is going to be forced to try out people who otherwise may NEVER have been selected.

This situation can only be described is a miserable failure like many things in South Africa. 24 years after apartheid and they are still fucking around trying to work this out.

So. Colored/African players who now belong on a Bok 23 TRULY on merit and form:

Jantjes
Skosaan
Beast
Nyakana
Mapoe

That's it on my list.

The problem really comes in when you have to leave out REAL form players like Janse v Rensburg (the best 12 in SA by MILES), Jaco Kriel (world-class), Malcolm Marx (gets better by the minute) and there are more. The Bulls have three guys playing at blind side who in my opinion all have a chance of making just about any test squad right now except the All Blacks (and they also have Jackpot back in the mix). Not ONE of these three will make the Bok 23 because you just have to play Kolisi, Mohoje or Notshe as you blindside and backup flanker to make up numbers`.

We are going to see an even bigger exodus of young players leaving SA in the next two years than ever before.

It is a grim picture.

 

[yourmatesam]

We are going to see an even bigger exodus of young players leaving SA in the next two years than ever before.

Blue - I reckon you can say that it's happening already. There are a number of handy players who have played age grade rugby at a high level who are testing the waters in other areas of the world looking to see what's out there.

 

[half]

Does soccer have a history of banning black or coloured players from their competition?

I am old enough to remember the days of apartheid, and frankly, rugby was at the absolute forefront of that abomination.

It would be a good thing if more black/coloured players could be induced or encouraged to play the game. It is fairly obvious why our history as a sport is against us. All rugby supporters of goodwill and good memories will applaud any measures that might make the game more accessible, and more popular, amongst the black and coloured populations of South Africa.

People who talk about "reverse racism" do not know much about real racism.

Bravo + 999999999

Complex to the power of complex is this issue. However on balance this is by light years the right decision.

 

[Highlander35]

FIFA is supposed to have rules that prevent government interference of the sport.

FIFA corrupt blah blah Bribes blah blah blah aside, does World Rugby have the balls to do something similar?

 

[Blue]

No politically astute administrator will stick their grubby paw in that hornet's nest.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

FIFA is supposed to have rules that prevent government interference of the sport.

FIFA corrupt blah blah Bribes blah blah blah aside, does World Rugby have the balls to do something similar?

Given their reluctance to do anything meaningful about the comparatively minor problems facing Samoan & Tongan RU's or investigate the alleged dual-contracts offered to PI & other players from Tier 2 countries by French clubs I'd suggest not.

 

[Lindommer]

FIFA is supposed to have rules that prevent government interference of the sport. .....does World Rugby have the balls to do something similar?

I brought this exact point up with Brett Gosper (chief poohbah of World Rugby) when he was in Sydney a few months ago; he's a suave bugger, he assured me WR (World Rugby) were aware of the circumstances.

 

[Scrubber2050]

I find the "race" thing a wee bit confusing.

Can someone clarrify a few things please.

I understand what a full blood African is. No problem. What about a 1% - 99% African mixed with "Anglo" blood. Is he an African or a coloured? Or is it that a person is categorised as a White, African or Coloured by the majority of the blood flowing through the veins

I always thought coloured's were of a mixed ethnicity or mainly Indians or other sub continent peoples.

Has the SA Government published how person's are to be "identified" ?

If so, it sort of sounds like that terrible system that existed over there some years ago - Apartheid (well, in sport anyway)