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South Africa vs World XV

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Andrew Slack (58)
World XV 23 announced:

World XV squad: Drew Mitchell, James O'Connor, Hosea Gear, Wynand Olivier, Benson Stanley, Rene Ranger, Francois Trinh Duc, Matthew Giteau, Rory Kockott, Jimmy Cowan, Alexandre Lapandry, Roger Wilson, Steffon Armitage, Mamuka Gorgodze, Iosefa Tekori, Alistair Hargreaves, Juandré Kruger, Andrew Hore, Craig Burden, Sona Taumalolo, Julian Redelinghuys, Carl Hayman, Schalk Ferreira.

Hello of a good squad. Better that typical Barbarian squads.

Run on team could look like this:
O'Connor
Mitchell
Ranger
Gits
Gear
Trinh Duc
Cowan
Armitage
Gorgodze
Hargreaves
Kruger
Tekori
Taumololo
Burden
Hayman

I am worried.

Boks have a sudden pile of injuries. Will play a new centre combo, M Steyn looks likely to start. Eek.
 
qwerty51

qwerty51

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Don't think this deserves a World XV name instead of Barbarians when it doesn't include any players that would make an actual World XV.
 
Tangawizi

Tangawizi

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Going on their twitter pics I'd be worried about whether Gits & Mitchell get over their hangovers in time to play. Looks like had a good party after the wins.
 
PaarlBok

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
I still try to figure out why mMeyer havent picked Heinrich Brussouw or Boshoff? In fact he rely heavy on the old age home and chicken runner club these days and keep on ignoring local player who play their guts out each week for the SA franchises. There is absolute nothing for a good player to stay in SA, nothing.
Sport24
Meyer snubs Brüssow again

2014-06-02 13:06









fbc80b89f5d44086aaa660b4120f3e35.jpg

Heinrich Brüssow (Gallo Images)
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Dominic Valentine - Sport24
Cape Town - Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer's treatment of Cheetahs loose forward Heinrich Brüssow amounts to a slap in the face.

Many were surprised two weeks ago to learn of Brüssow's inclusion in Meyer's preliminary 36-man Springbok squad: was Meyer finally making a U-turn on his anti-Brüssow stance?

Was Meyer finally acknowledging Brüssow's fine performance in Super Rugby and giving him a fair crack at the No 6 jersey?

Meyer had in the past offered up a litany of reasons for excluding the nuggety openside flank from the Springbok team, including suggestions that the Cheetahs forward's penalty count was too high, ironic when you consider his Springbok team received 13 cards last year for discipline-related offences and foul play.

Of course the real reason behind Meyer's well-documented preference of height and bulk is that taller and heftier forwards offer more in the set-pieces, an extra lineout option and added bulk in the scrum and rolling maul.

A technical coach like Meyer places a lot of emphasis on the set-piece, the very platform on which his considerable success at the Bulls was based.

Two weeks later and Meyer's rush to include Brüssow in the squad appears more like a rush of blood to the head.

Brüssow has subsequently been unceremoniously booted from the squad, one of only five players included in the initial squad, but cut from the final squad for reasons other than injury or suspension.

Of the four other players who didn't make the final 36-man cut for the Incoming Series, Marnitz Boshoff and Jacques du Plessis are uncapped and Trevor Nyakane still has the spectre of a disciplinary issue from last year hovering over him.

The fourth player was Bjorn Basson, who hasn't shone as brightly this year as he did last year after topping the Super Rugby try-scoring table in 2013.

It makes one wonder: why include Brüssow in the first place?

Could it be the Springbok coach was trying to avoid a banana peel?

Nick Mallett last week revealed on SuperSport he had wanted to include Brüssow in his World XV, however he was unable to select him when Meyer decided to call Brüssow into his 36-man squad.

"I was looking to get Brüssow in, but I think Heyneke heard about that, and selected him for the Bok team," Mallett joked.

If Brüssow had played for the World XV and put in the sort of performance against the Springboks that he routinely does for the Cheetahs in Super Rugby, it could have left Meyer with egg on his face.

Meyer's attitude towards Brüssow seems to be much the same as Jake White's view of fetchers: only useful for bringing a cold one to the couch.

The Bulls team's recent struggles at the breakdown in Super Rugby without a serious fetcher in their loose trio arsenal without the injured Deon Stegmann is evidence of the weakness of that philosophy.

The Springboks, on the other hand, already have a more than capable fetcher in the form of Francois Louw - however, if Louw is injured, the Boks have a real problem, as was evidenced by the team's match against Scotland in June last year, when Louw was released on nuptial leave and the Springboks put in their worst performance of the year.

If Meyer had the courage of his convictions he should have afforded Brüssow the opportunity to prove him wrong at Test level, by allowing him to play against the Springboks in a World XV team.

It's one thing to refuse to pick a player, but to then prevent that same player playing against your team seems a bit disingenuous.

Picking Brüssow and then dropping him from the Springbok squad is an even bigger snub than if he hadn't picked the player at all.

Changes to the final 36-man Springbok squad:

OUT:

Bjorn Basson (Bulls)
Marnitz Boshoff (Lions)
Heinrich Brüssow (Cheetahs)
Jean de Villiers (Stormers) - INJURED
Jacques du Plessis (Bulls)
Frans Malherbe (Stormers) - INJURED
Trevor Nyakane (Cheetahs)
Adriaan Strauss (Cheetahs) - SUSPENDED

IN:

Bakkies Botha (Toulon, France)
Schalk Brits (Saracens, England)
Bryan Habana (Toulon, France)
Zane Kirchner (Leinster, Ireland)
Francois Louw (Bath, England)
Ruan Pienaar (Ulster, Northern Ireland)
Gurthrö Steenkamp (Toulouse, France)
Morné Steyn (Stade Francais, France)
Click to expand...
 
Pfitzy

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
qwerty51 said:
Don't think this deserves a World XV name instead of Barbarians when it doesn't include any players that would make an actual World XV.
Click to expand...


*gasp*! Surely you can't say that Matt Giteau is NOT World Class! He would easily walk back into the Wallabies right this second!

Just ask Eddie Jones. Or Marto...
 
flat_eric

flat_eric

Alfred Walker (16)
Looking forward to see how our Wallaby contingent go, three players who I'd argue would be in contention for a starting spot with the national team if they had not left these shores.
 
PaarlBok

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
Bairdy

Bairdy

Peter Fenwicke (45)
PaarlBok said:
South Africa:15 Willie le Roux, 14 Cornal Hendricks, 13 JP Pietersen, 12 Frans Steyn, 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Morné Steyn, 9 Ruan Pienaar, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Willem Alberts, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Victor Matfield (captain), 4 Bakkies Botha, 3 Jannie du Plessis, 2 Bismarck du Plessis, 1 Tendai Mtawarira

Substitutes: 16 Schalk Brits, 17 Gurthrö Steenkamp, 18 Coenie Oosthuizen, 19 Flip van der Merwe, 20 Schalk Burger, 21 Fourie du Preez, 22 Johan Goosen, 23 Lwazi Mvovo
Click to expand...
Hmm I thought Etzebeth had recovered from his [ankle?] injury and was being rested in the lead up to the June tests.

I wonder who the 13 cover is for JPP
 
Brumby Runner

Brumby Runner

David Wilson (68)
Strange looking backline imo. JPP and Franz Steyn playing out of their Super positions (Though Steyne is a better 12 than 10) and Habana, Morne and Pienaar all playing in the North. Habana and Backies particularly will need to show great improvement on their Top 14 final form.
 
Jason Little

Jason Little

Bob McCowan (2)
Blue said:
World XV 23 announced:

World XV squad: Drew Mitchell, James O'Connor, Hosea Gear, Wynand Olivier, Benson Stanley, Rene Ranger, Francois Trinh Duc, Matthew Giteau, Rory Kockott, Jimmy Cowan, Alexandre Lapandry, Roger Wilson, Steffon Armitage, Mamuka Gorgodze, Iosefa Tekori, Alistair Hargreaves, Juandré Kruger, Andrew Hore, Craig Burden, Sona Taumalolo, Julian Redelinghuys, Carl Hayman, Schalk Ferreira.

Hello of a good squad. Better that typical Barbarian squads.

Run on team could look like this:
O'Connor
Mitchell
Ranger
Gits
Gear
Trinh Duc
Cowan
Armitage
Gorgodze
Hargreaves
Kruger
Tekori
Taumololo
Burden
Hayman

I am worried.

Boks have a sudden pile of injuries. Will play a new centre combo, M Steyn looks likely to start. Eek.
Click to expand...
 
Jason Little

Jason Little

Bob McCowan (2)
An interesting match as both sides have the 'Barbarians' element. The Springboks have included several players who are currently foreign based. This is not simply because of injuries, but because of a preference to balance newer players with the experienced, and in the case of Bakkies Botha and Fourie du Preez, the positively grizzled.

The debate over the inclusion of foreign based players will continue, probably more so from Australia & New Zealand, both of whom would argue that South Africa has an advantage with their policy. I think that most of we antipodeans would love to have guys like Habana, Britz and big Bakkies playing week-in week-out for a Super XV side, but maybe aren't so thrilled with their inclusion as opposition for the Rugby Championship if they aren't.

In 2012, only Ruan Pienaar was included in the 23 for the inaugural Rugby Championship, whilst two players who were part of the squad in the previous series against England, Wynand Olivier and Ryan Kankowski, had signed contracts to play their rugby in Japan and were not considered. The number increased last year, and has done so again this year to 8. We will wait to see what happens this year, but I don't think Springbok selection will differ between which Nation they face.

I can't see why Bakkies Botha has been picked anyway. South Africa has more blokes in the country that are built like brick shithouses (ie: perfect specimens to be a lock) than Antarctica has penguins. Eben Etzebeth may be out, but surely stocks can't be that low. It is an insult to Flip van der Merwe for a start. (Or any of the locally based players for that matter, as with a quick troll around the web this morning, nearly all the photo's are of Botha or du Preez and had me wondering if we were in the right year).

And how many of us would love to have the flexibility in our team to match what Willem Alberts offers? Lock is not a problem area for the Springboks, nor the backrow, yet Francois Louw has also been recruited. Yes, it's a formidable pack, big and tough and flexible, and it's going to make an opposition lineout steal virtually impossible. But somehow it's a shame to 'bring in' these players when we have truly seen some talent this season. Even with a steady stream of injuries, franchises such as the Lions & Cheetahs repeatedly field gun players in this area. Maybe Whiteley, Deon Fourie, Brousseuw and Nizaam Carr, just to name a few, just aren't big enough to satisfy the conditions of being a Springbok forward.

But in the case of Bakkies Botha, maybe the occasion is more the reason, a bit of fun and not a super-serious test match. And the prospect of having Botha pack down once again with Victor Matfield, something we all thought would never again happen, is too tantalising to resist.

But what about the 'importation' of two halfbacks? Francois Hougaard is an extremely talented player who hasn't had his best season, but number 9 stocks in South Africa are not exactly dire. Sure, the current crop of halfbacks don't use the boot as effectively as Du Preez & Pienaar, both 'traditional' Bok halves, but I will give you the tip: Kicking away ball to the World XV backline won't be a good idea.

I don't really see what is wrong with playing Hougaard and Goosen; Australia, for example, is constantly forced to blood players and combinations. And, I think it makes it more interesting as each team goes through these phases rather than fall back to the tried and tested. But do the majority of fans want the 'best' of their passport holders to represent their country, regardless of their current address?

Craig Burden knows he won't play for the Boks because he's not that sort of player. He's the sort of player that everyone else wants. Michael Hooper wouldn't be picked for the Boks or the All Blacks, but he is most definitely suited to traditional Wallaby play. Morne Steyn is a solid choice for South Africa, but I suspect if it came down to it, Australia would go with Hegarty over Morne. It's evolved firstly through Mark Ella, and then undisputedly through Larkham, and is apparent with the sensible pick of another highly talented although non-traditional fly half such as Foley. (non-traditional rugby fly-half rather than non-traditional Australian rugby fly-half). So I suppose we must factor instances like this in the discussion.

Would the Boks be that depleted if they picked a purely domestic team? And which 8 players would get the honours of the green jersey?

Could the Wallabies use some foreign-based talent? Or the All-Blacks? And if so, who would you include and replace?

Three inclusions for Australia are playing for the World XV: Giteau, Mitchell & O'Connor. Giteau is better than ever, and has matured both as a player and person. Tevita Kurindrani may be the future, but right now he is not better than Matt Giteau, and I can't see Kurindrani having even the potential to be as influential. When Drew Mitchell left our shores, he wasn't in great form, but neither are many players after suffering serious and extended injuries. I don't expect David Pocock to be back at his best or play with the same confidence until well after the World Cup. Both Schalk Burger and Heinrich Brussow are examples of previously devastating players in the back row that are only now reaching previous heights. But without Pocock, the Australian depth is much affected. I doubt there would be anyone who wouldn't enjoy hearing the words 'George Smith' again.

But I digress, Drew Mitchell: straight into my side. He's back to his best and he is a decent specialist winger any day of the week. Nick Cummins may be loveable, but until it actually happened, I don't think even Mr. & Mrs. Cummins would have had him in their run-on team. Wingers like the Honey Badger and say, Jonny McNicholl, are not quite multi-skilled enough to be internationals, but they certainly deserve their spot patrolling the sidelines for their respective teams, don't get me wrong.

I have no concern what James O'Connor does in his spare time. He can get sloshed and hop on a plane to a Belgian monastery for all I care, as long as he knows that if he isn't fit enough to play, that's his problem. Even at his most average, you've gotta think that the pride in the jersey would make him a much better option than the Honey Badger (sorry Mr. & Mrs Cummins).

Even if the ARU changed their position, I doubt much would change, for the time being anyway. Ewen McKenzie has already shown that even thinkingabout going overseas greatly reduces your chances of selection. But, I doubt Mowen and Pyle would get selection next year even if there was a policy change. There are too many other Australians running around the globe who are better players, and it's well known that Australia simply just can't allow an further exodus of stock. But, if the policy were relaxed, foreign based players would still be aware they are unlikely to be picked because of just that, but when injuries reach levels as they have in periods over the past few years, at least there is an option. Nobody wants to see England break the record books and thrash Australia by 60 points because we are too stubborn to at least save National pride.

For the first time in a long time, the Wallabies backline looks to be severely lacking in pace and razzle-dazzle. They have a strike weapon in Folau, but can the current side hold their own enough to protect Foley and to move forward enough to use Folau effectively, or would the skill of the Aussie expats be better suited to confuse the opposition into just expanding that hole a little bit more for Izzy to pounce?

You may have noticed that I haven't talked about New Zealand. It's pretty obvious isn't it? The depth of stock is just too great that it doesn't matter if foreign based players are available or not. If the All-Blacks were playing the World XV though, I'll bet Ranger would put in a decent hit or three on Fekitoa..

As the game expands further, players are more influenced by lifestyle and financial choices, and countries relax further their citizenship requirements (ie: France), maybe someday we'll have no option but to run Tests as a 'state of origin. When that day comes though, somebody really will have to turn off the lights at Auckland airport, and hopefully, George Smith will still be available.
 
Braveheart81

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Great post and welcome to the forum.

If all our players were available, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) would be be playing 13 and there is no way I'd be picking Giteau ahead of him at 13 given AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)'s current form.

Mitchell would potentially be in the Wallabies team right now as he's healthy and in form again, but if Speight and Tomane were available he might not. It's certainly not cut and dry enough to suggest that the Wallabies are missing out on anything under our current eligibility rules.
 
Blue

Blue

Andrew Slack (58)
Hi Jason welcome to the madness.

Lots of valid points. Good post.

Some quick comments:

- Yes there are good locks about. If Eben or his future BOK locking partner, PS du Toit were healthy, either would start with Matfield. Bakkies has been in excellent form and arguable the best lock forward playing in France. his selection is an easy one but Flip is just as good. The other locks are simply too green.
- Ruan Pienaar? Makes no sense. Reinach would be my first choice starter.
- M Steyn really is a joke. HE cannot even get s start for his club.

Meyer has goen safety first by picking the oldies.

In the whole I am not too fussed.

I like JP at 13. Should have happended last year.

Hooper would get picked by Meyer. He is that good.
 
Blue

Blue

Andrew Slack (58)
Bairdy said:
Hmm I thought Etzebeth had recovered from his [ankle?] injury and was being rested in the lead up to the June tests.

I wonder who the 13 cover is for JPP
Click to expand...

Bok medicos have decided Eben won't be ready until 3N.

13 cover? Habana probably.

I am happy with JP at 13. Way better option that JJ Englenbrecht. Feel sorry for JdJongh though.

This should have been Meyer's opportunity to get rid of M Steyn had Lambie been fit. Damn. I still think he should have been bold and started with Boshoff.

It really is time to move on from M Steyn. The Boks were so much better when Lambie played 10.

People say Vic and Bakkies are a step back. I totally disagree. M Steyn is the step back.
 
Braveheart81

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Hendricks has played some 13 for the Cheetahs this season hasn't he? I'm also a little surprised he made the starting side ahead of Mvovo.
 
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