Subbies 2023!

[Pfitzy]

@Pfitzy are you able to let everyone know what the criteria for promotion/relegation is other than the ability to field the required number of teams per that division and placing on the Club Championship ladder?

Also for @TheBigArvo - in the first instance, I'd point you to the Operations Manual on how a club comes to be assessed - there are a few clauses dealing with it on page 7 of this document including one about fielding the appropriate teams: https://rugby.net.au/ResDetail.asp?id=16980&OrgID=132&menu=637

Note well the fact that there is no automatic promotion or relegation, only a process of assessment. That might or might not determine further discussion or action.

 

[Prodigy]

Also for @TheBigArvo - in the first instance, I'd point you to the Operations Manual on how a club comes to be assessed - there are a few clauses dealing with it on page 7 of this document including one about fielding the appropriate teams: https://rugby.net.au/ResDetail.asp?id=16980&OrgID=132&menu=637

Note well the fact that there is no automatic promotion or relegation, only a process of assessment. That might or might not determine further discussion or action.

That’s right. We can promote Sydney Harbour to Division 3, even though they are a one team club.

 

[Doritos Day]

An arbitrary “process of assessment” seems pretty concerning in a structure/organisation where the general perception is certain clubs are held to different standards than others.

Not saying that is/isn’t applicable in this specific circumstance

Just that it’s zero sum, if some clubs are given favourable treatment (“they can’t go down”, “they are Div 1”) others necessarily get the short end of the stick

The undoubted presence of lobbying and some clubs having more clout/influence is also an issue

 

[Pfitzy]

Clubs can never meet the criteria cause the goal posts are constantly changing for some clubs.

"Never" is probably harsh language to use.

The triggers for assessment are there to start a discussion, not finalise a decision. That's why there is no automatic promotion or relegation process specified in the Ops Manual.

 

[Pfitzy]

An arbitrary “process of assessment” seems pretty concerning in a structure/organisation where the general perception is certain clubs are held to different standards than others.

TBF that perception exists across a wide range of Subbies people, and rugby people in general

 

[Pfitzy]

Just that it’s zero sum

Keeping any Division at a specified size is going to be zero sum by its very nature - if someone comes onto the lifeboat, someone has to get out.

Unless we're just going to keep growing Division 1 because nobody wants to leave? If we make it 10 teams per Prodigy's suggestion above, adding Lindfield, is that where we stop? UNSW are probably next cab off the rank in terms of club size and performance. Would they want it? Newport too?

My concern for letting Div 1 get bigger is it hastens the death of everything below it.

 

[Pfitzy]

That’s right. We can promote Sydney Harbour to Division 3, even though they are a one team club.

Yes, though technically they have 2 Grades; all their 2nd Grade players are registered to Sydney Harbour, regardless of how they interact with the club or which strip they wear.

Regardless, I'm yet to hear a good solution to that issue. Got one? They keep smashing everyone below Div 3 in the current structure.

Or other clubs like Menai who just turn up when they want, win a cup, and leave again. Aspiration to grow isn't top of everyone's mind, and it can be damaging to others in that division.

 

[Doritos Day]

Keeping any Division at a specified size is going to be zero sum by its very nature - if someone comes onto the lifeboat, someone has to get out.

Unless we're just going to keep growing Division 1 because nobody wants to leave? If we make it 10 teams per Prodigy's suggestion above, adding Lindfield, is that where we stop? UNSW are probably next cab off the rank in terms of club size and performance. Would they want it? Newport too?

My concern for letting Div 1 get bigger is it hastens the death of everything below it.

That's a strawman though.

The issue at hand is not the specifics of divisional structure and presence of pro/rel but how it is applied; the opaqueness/ inconsistency in the process.

Specifically in this situation, Subbies made a rod for their own back by taking the easy option last year, creating more confusion and uncertainty now.

Maybe things will become clearer once the reasons for St Pat's relegation are made public (assuming this happens??). But the club's statement indicates they have been completely blindsided by it - as have the posters in this forum - which really shouldn't happen on an issue like this.

 

[Prodigy]

That's a strawman though.

The issue at hand is not the specifics of divisional structure and presence of pro/rel but how it is applied; the opaqueness/ inconsistency in the process.

Specifically in this situation, Subbies made a rod for their own back by taking the easy option last year, creating more confusion and uncertainty now.

Maybe things will become clearer once the reasons for St Pat's relegation are made public (assuming this happens??). But the club's statement indicates they have been completely blindsided by it - as have the posters in this forum - which really shouldn't happen on an issue like this.

Not should this information be leaked and have representative of other club being the ones in the know before the club themselves.
This should be something that Subbies look into and investigate. Clubs should not be blindsided like this

 

[TheBigArvo]

Also for @TheBigArvo - in the first instance, I'd point you to the Operations Manual on how a club comes to be assessed - there are a few clauses dealing with it on page 7 of this document including one about fielding the appropriate teams: https://rugby.net.au/ResDetail.asp?id=16980&OrgID=132&menu=637

Note well the fact that there is no automatic promotion or relegation, only a process of assessment. That might or might not determine further discussion or action.

All of the points outlined in that section other than Subbies has the right to asses any club for regrading don’t explain why St Pars have been dumped.

 

[Pfitzy]

Specifically in this situation, Subbies made a rod for their own back by taking the easy option last year, creating more confusion and uncertainty now.

Leaving it at 9 teams created issues, definitely. That is what going back to 8x8 tries to correct.

On the 2022 Club Championship, Knox came last and were guaranteed a drop. We all know that.
Drummoyne were second-last by 4 points behind Petersham.
There was also an asterisk over the way forfeit points were handled that year, as COVID restrictions were still applicable in certain circumstances, and there was no good way around how to apply them.

This complicated the CC calculations over and above the 10 clubs preventing a full home/away calculation.

 

[HarryElite]

Im confused by all this reading. I think the main question that needs explaining is ‘why have you relegated st pats’

enough of the crap about trying to explain the process and criteria when clearly, theyve met everything that you can question and exceeded most.

a ‘this is the real reason of relegation’ is needed.

have some balls and answer the real question

 

[The Wombat]

Im confused by all this reading. I think the main question that needs explaining is ‘why have you relegated st pats’

enough of the crap about trying to explain the process and criteria when clearly, theyve met everything that you can question and exceeded most.

a ‘this is the real reason of relegation’ is needed.

have some balls and answer the real question

I'll start out by saying I'm not discussing any Board decision in specifics, but I'll address some points, which I've addressed in part of full before.

 

[HarryElite]

Suggestion is more of ‘if you cant go into specifics at all, just stop talking completely’

dont pussy foot around silly answers and be technical, just dont talk. Dont keep making subbies and the board look even dumber than what they currently do.

as a board member of subbies (if im reading that correct the young man is), just dont say anything at all until a statement has been produced as to why.. which they probably wont do anyway.. so just be quiet and refrain from answering.

i sit on a corporate board, you dont think the other board members are on social forums trying to explain the process behind the decisions while not addressing the reason at all.. theyd be shot!

so give the real answer, or simply just be quiet

 

[Prodigy]

Well, with the statement from St Pats now public, it puts Subbies on the clock. Let’s see what this week brings

 

[BundyBear]

If you think Lindfield were strong this year, wait until you see what we will do in Division 2. There is a monster gap between the two divisions.

The Kentwell Cup 2023 was the most even competition since 2012. While 1st grade did not get a lot of wins, we had five bonus point losses for being within seven points. In the last two weeks of the competition there was narrow losses to Drummoyne and Hunters Hill. Does anyone actually believe that any club in Division 2 could hold their own in any way against the likes of Hunters Hill, Drummoyne, Colleagues or Waverley? If you are wondering, the answer is no, and that includes UNSW.

I watched the colts grand final in Division 2 and if that was the best in the division, then heaven help the sides who came 3rd-8th who have to play us and even the other Division 1 club who have moved down.

I say this with no arrogance, but we won't be dropping many points in the first two grades or colts.

 

[The Wombat]

Div 1 should be 10 teams.

 

[Heure]

enough of the crap about trying to explain the process and criteria when clearly, theyve met everything that you can question and exceeded most.

a ‘this is the real reason of relegation’ is needed.

have some balls and answer the real question

If you think Lindfield were strong this year, wait until you see what we will do in Division 2. There is a monster gap between the two divisions.

The Kentwell Cup 2023 was the most even competition since 2012. While 1st grade did not get a lot of wins, we had five bonus point losses for being within seven points. In the last two weeks of the competition there was narrow losses to Drummoyne and Hunters Hill. Does anyone actually believe that any club in Division 2 could hold their own in any way against the likes of Hunters Hill, Drummoyne, Colleagues or Waverley? If you are wondering, the answer is no, and that includes UNSW.

I watched the colts grand final in Division 2 and if that was the best in the division, then heaven help the sides who came 3rd-8th who have to play us and even the other Division 1 club who have moved down.

I say this with no arrogance, but we won't be dropping many points in the first two grades or colts.

Waiting eagerly like the rest of the suburban rugby community to get some transparency on this decision - pfitzy aka The Oracle - please divulge us mere peasants with the sacret and holy information that can only be released over the trough.

surely Forest should have got the chop before St Pats?

 

[Denistone_Dennis]

Drain the swamp.....

 

[Ozzie Bob]

I guess the next question is if St Pats are going down and Lindfield up that still leaves us with one club to come down. Who is that going to be???