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The Carl Hayman Saga

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JJJ

Vay Wilson (31)
Is anybody else watching this little drama with as much interest and schadenfreude as I am? It's looking increasingly likely that he won't come back to restore the AB scrum to the overweening dominance of former years. In France and England his defection to Toulon is being written about in the papers as a done deal. As far as I know though he hasn't actually announced anything yet, but judging by the sourgrapeometer of kiwi opinion ("If he'd rather take the money than play for his country then we're better off without him!") they're no longer expecting him back.

I'm a bit disappointed. I was looking forward to seeing if he's as good a prop at international level as everyone thinks (not having seen him play much). I also wanted to see how Robinson would handle him, and thought the experience would make the latter a better prop.

But counterbalancing that disappointment is the anguish of our kiwi brethren. Smells like...victory!
 

Blue

Andrew Slack (58)
Well done for joining those Kiwis who enjoyed some schadenfeude over Tiquiru, Dell and other similar soap operas in the gutter.

What's the view like from down there?
 

JJJ

Vay Wilson (31)
Blue said:
Well done for joining those Kiwis who enjoyed some schadenfeude over Tiquiru, Dell and other similar soap operas in the gutter.

What's the view like from down there?

Not sure who Dell is, but it's a bit different with Tuqiri. Lote was booted out of the side in disgrace. He didn't want to be out of the wallabies. He was devastated by it, or so he told us. Hayman on the other hand is rejecting the overtures of the All Blacks of his own free will out of fiscal considerations. He's doing what he wants to do -- not being forced to stop doing what he wants to do like Lote was. Not that I personally had any qualms about Lote being sacked.

See the difference?
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
WenDELL Sailor. Remember, big guy, played for Qld then the Tahs, then got white line fever??

Oh, and I am also enjoying the Kiwi angst - the incredulity that someone wouldn't take a half-million / year pay cut to play for the ABs (or indeed more). There has been more than enough evidence that modern rugby is a mercenary game.
Having said that, I would rather see him play than not - he is a great player.
 

mark_s

Chilla Wilson (44)
cyclopath said:
WenDELL Sailor. Remember, big guy, played for Qld then the Tahs, then got white line fever??

Oh, and I am also enjoying the Kiwi angst - the incredulity that someone wouldn't take a half-million / year pay cut to play for the ABs (or indeed more). There has been more than enough evidence that modern rugby is a mercenary game.
Having said that, I would rather see him play than not - he is a great player.

I know this sounds odd, but I thought Dell had finally worked out how to play rugby when he got done for coke.

Sorry to not see Hayman back, he is a great player and I enjoyed watching him play
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Yeah was thinking that too mark - what if Dell had been out there against the Force last night? No-one could accuse him of lacking commitment. He did a big learning curve and his strength and explosive power were an asset.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
NTA said:
Yeah was thinking that too mark - what if Dell had been out there against the Force last night? No-one could accuse him of lacking commitment. He did a big learning curve and his strength and explosive power were an asset.
Agreed. Look, even Tuqiri got involved, and usually tied up 2-3 defenders, and his defensive work was not usually questioned. Problem is he only looked good when running straight, and no-one at the Tahs had the whit to have the attack go forward rather than sideways (revolutionary stuff, I know) over the last 4 years.
But the inside backs are the cancer, and Riddler's mate in the box! ;)
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
NTA said:
Yeah but he only did 3 and sat down between each one.

8)

Sitting down between each one is harder than not doing so because your leg muscles have to "refire".
 

Epi

Dave Cowper (27)
Well he won't be playing in the world cup..

Carl Hayman is out of the All Blacks equation, but who can replace him?

All Blacks coach Graham Henry has been handed a massive setback to his master plan to finally end the Rugby World Cup jinx in New Zealand next year.

There's no other way to look at the ramifications of Carl Hayman's decision confirmed overnight to turn his back on the All Blacks and sign a multi-million-dollar two-year deal with Toulon in France.

Henry has long viewed Hayman's return as a key plank in his 2011 World Cup blueprint, and the 30-year-old prop's decision to spurn the generous offer made him by the New Zealand Rugby Union will be regarded as a bitter blow.

So desperate were the NZRU to lure Hayman back they had involved Taranaki and the Hurricanes in the bid process to strengthen their offer, with suggestions they were even prepared to "help" set him up on a dairy farm in the region.

NZRU boss Steve Tew has denied that a farm was any part of their contract offer, though reports suggested that third parties were to be involved to assist him in his ambitions in this area.

New Zealand rugby is short on world-class tighthead props and there has long been a feeling around the All Blacks that they've been in a holding pattern until Hayman's return which was regarded as imminent.

Now that plan has been shredded and Henry faces heading into the World Cup next year without a truly dominant tighthead prop.

The Hurricanes' Neemia Tialata has been the main option since Hayman's 2007 defection, starting 13 of the 29 tests in 2008-09. Greg Somerville, who has since departed to the UK, started eight tests in '08 and the Blues' John Afoa wore the No 3 jersey in four internationals over that two-year span.

The Crusaders' Owen Franks is considered the bright young hope at just 22, and he started four of the All Blacks' 14 tests last year as he made a promising beginning to his international career.

Tialata, Franks and Afoa shape as the main contenders for the World Cup squad, though none appeals as a clear-cut option the way the hulking Hayman would have.

There is a touch of irony in the fact that the man widely regarded as the most dominant tighthead prop in rugby won't be coming to the World Cup, but the NZRU will not budge in their stance on not picking All Blacks from offshore.

Tialata is a versatile sort who can cover both sides and at his best is a strong scrummager and a solid performer around the paddock. But there have long been question marks over his fitness and ability to go the full 80, with his knees considered particularly vulnerable.

Afoa is probably the best ball-player of the three with a dynamic round-the-field game, though he has yet to present the sort of compelling scrum credentials that demand his inclusion in the test mix.

Franks has a cast-iron back, high workrate and a developing ball-in-hand game and has plenty of upside. The downside with him is his age and experience and it could be a World Cup too soon for him to be the first choice in 2011.

Certainly Hayman's decision to take up the riches on offer in Toulon and effectively seal his financial future present a significant upside for the tighthead props who remain in New Zealand.

Suddenly it's all on again for young and old.

Aside from the trio who filled the role last year, the only other potential contenders look a fair way off the mark required.

Ben Franks, Owen's older brother, went on tour with the All Blacks in '08 and is also a more than capable tighthead, while the Highlanders' Clint Newland has size on his side (at 130kg) but has been unable to translate that into dominant form at Super 14 level.

Newland's team-mate Jamie Mackintosh has been a loosehead specialist hitherto, but it could be that the 129kg prop they call 'Whoppa' considers changing sides given recent events.

At the Chiefs Nathan White has been their starting tighthead this season, with youngster Ben Afeaki used off the bench. Neither have international pedigree, though the 22-year-old Afeaki is considered to have potential.

Which leaves Henry, and his assistants, back to plan B for their World Cup preparations which will start this year.

Tialata will probably be their first option, Franks the backup and Afoa the X-factor lurking in the wings.

That's not the end of the world by any means, but it's a long way from the place where Henry envisioned he'd be when he helped put together what many considered would be the deal Hayman would not be able to refuse.

How the All Black tighthead race now shapes:
http://www.theage.com.au/rugby-unio...ion-hits-graham-henry-hard-20100322-qq7h.html

They should just pick him anyway. Can you imagine if Pim Verbeek only picked players from the A-League - we'd get slaughtered.. I know different sport but in a WC you've got to field your strongest side surely...
 

MajorlyRagerly

Trevor Allan (34)
Blue said:
Well done for joining those Kiwis who enjoyed some schadenfeude over Tiquiru, Dell and other similar soap operas in the gutter.

What's the view like from down there?

None of the 3 situations are remotely the same! What on earth are you talking about?

Hayman's choice, glad it's been made, so now can move on, forget about him (permanently) and spend his paycheck on developoing our up 'n coming props.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
I think Blue was being ironic, MR. I don't think he was drawing analogies with the different incidents. The idea that we should revel in this, as much as others revelled in dramas over here was seen as lowering the tone of the whole thing, I think. Hence " How is the view down there?"
The degree of angst expressed by some on this is amusing, but as I and other posters have suggested, it would be better to see him play as he is a class player. Personally I say good luck to him.
If I have misinterpreted Blue, I apologise to Blue.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Cutter said:
Sitting down between each one is harder than not doing so because your leg muscles have to "refire".

Yes but you also get to use momentum to help propel upwards. Designed to take the strain off the knees a bit too.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
NTA said:
Cutter said:
Sitting down between each one is harder than not doing so because your leg muscles have to "refire".

Yes but you also get to use momentum to help propel upwards. Designed to take the strain off the knees a bit too.

Where do you get momentum from if you've been sitting down?
 

Scorz

Syd Malcolm (24)
NZ have plenty of good tighthead props. I'm backing Owen Franks to make the spot his own by RWC time. And unlike Hayman he has nothing to live up to except his own ambition.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Yeah Scorz at the end of the day you've got to say "Thanks Carl - you've done your bit" and move on. The bloke probably had enough of the fishbowl effect anyway living in NZ.
 
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