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The Climate Change Thread

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barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
But see that illustrates one of the things I hate about politics. When did TA say that line? From memory it was back in the Howard days?

Is he allowed to change his mind? I think quite a few people have become climate change believers in the last five or so years as the weight of evidence has become stronger. I wish we'd allow our politicians to change their mind based on evidence rather than throwing in their face some quote from years ago.
 

kambah mick

Chris McKivat (8)
No,Barbarian, he said it during the last election campaign at ,I think Colac in Victoria just a day or so after telling a city audience (I think Melbourne) that "climate change is real". I agree that politicians should be able to change their minds, in fact I often think more highly of people who do change their minds when in posession of new information or after deeper reflection on matters. Abbotts "all things to all people" trick is just hypocrisy, especially in light of his treatment of Gillards Juliar christening.
 
C

chief

Guest
He said it like a month before he took the leadership, and then composed his own climate change policy which is effective and inefficient.

This talk on repealing the carbon tax is real. It's fucked if he does. I have no problem with the bloke watering it down to say 15 bucks a tonne but getting rid of it for direct action is a little beyond the pale.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Abbott doesn't believe in man made global warming, sorry climate change, but do we know for sure that gillard does? It appears she was a big part of the ets getting canned which the led to rudds axing, then makes a statement to get elected about no carbon tax and now brings in a carbon tax so she can keep in power with the support of the greens.

Everything she has done appears to be for her own skin, how do we know what she believes?

And if she doesn't really believe, are we getting the best result?

It seems to me if the problem is as big as what is being stated this tax will not save a thing, but cost a lot. If we reached the ipcc reduction targets will we save the world?
 

Bruwheresmycar

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Putting a limit on pollution is a good start. It seems the more the world produces, the higher pollution gets with no repercussions. Which is a type of negative externality.

This is all the carbon tax is doing, putting a cost on the pollution. Then when we move into an ETS, we can start controlling the level of co2 pollution and limit it to the set targets.

Will it help prevent damage/changes to the ecosystem? If the world gets a move on, yes.

As for what Julia Gillard actually believes or stands for on the topic of anything...How long is a piece of string!
 
C

chief

Guest
Putting a limit on pollution is a good start. It seems the more the world produces, the higher pollution gets with no repercussions. Which is a type of negative externality.

This is all the carbon tax is doing, putting a cost on the pollution. Then when we move into an ETS, we can start controlling the level of co2 pollution and limit it to the set targets.

Will it help prevent damage/changes to the ecosystem? If the world gets a move on, yes.

As for what Julia Gillard actually believes or stands for on the topic of anything...How long is a piece of string!
I hear Gillard is expected to backflip on gay marriage in a few weeks two. Gillard's a career politician who probably would have been the best Opposition Leader we've never had.

Both Abbott and Gillard are opportunist individuals. Abbott at least has some convictions (some of them are a little scary, fault based divorce for one). No one can deny our two political leaders are right on the bottom of the pile. Right on the bottom. But I would rather Gillard then Rudd. And I would rather Abbott then say Scott Morrison.

Also one has to wonder, with an ETS working effectively like a tax, why is this debate being framed around semantics. Maybe it should be framed on whether a flat tax is better or an ETS of cap and trading. As I alluded to earlier, the carbon tax 'fixed price period' is the same which Turnbull and Rudd negotiated except Gillard's was 3 years while Rudd's was 1. It wasn't called a carbon tax then.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
I agree that Abbott won't repeal the ETS. It is, as with everything else he does, designed to frighten the unthinking electorate and destabilise the government. His direct action policy is beyond a joke. It hasn't undergone any serious scrutiny because it doesn't withstand scrutiny. However, because our media is lazy, he can get away with saying he has a policy to tackle climate change (which he doesn't believe in). God help us if/when he's elected prime minister.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...n-tax-plans-20111025-1mi0d.html#ixzz1bpDv8YYI

Abbott courts trouble with carbon tax plans October 26, 2011

Opinion


"Even if Tony Abbott is right about the negative impact of the carbon tax, this may be outweighed by the cost of dismantling it". Photo: Alex Ellinghausen

Tony Abbott has made a "blood pledge" to repeal the carbon tax. However, even if he wins the next election, it may be years before he has the required numbers in Parliament and he may also face a crippling compensation bill.

There is little prospect that a victorious Coalition will gain a Senate majority at the next election. Bob Brown has already met Abbott's pledge with a "rolled gold guarantee" that the Greens will vote to keep the carbon tax, and Labor has indicated the same.

Abbott has said that as prime minister he will engineer a double dissolution of Parliament. This would be a fresh election for all members, rather than the normal poll for only half the Senate.

He might then gain a majority in the Senate or, even if he does not, the constitution permits him to pass disputed legislation after the election at a joint sitting of both houses.

His problem lies in the timing. Under section 57 of the constitution, a double dissolution may only occur after a bill is rejected by the Senate once and, after three months have elapsed, a second time.

This process cannot be rushed. The High Court has said that the Senate is entitled "to have a proper opportunity for debate". A determined Senate could string this out for many months and it might take Abbott a year or more to secure a double dissolution trigger.

A further problem is that even this timing will be frustrated by the changeover in the Senate. The next election can be held as late as November 30, 2013. A quirk in the constitution means that the senators elected do not take their seats until July 1, 2014.

Abbott might try to spring a double dissolution in the interim. The constitution does not expressly prevent this, but it could be challenged in the High Court because it would lead to the bizarre outcome of the Senate being dissolved without its new members having taken their seats.

In any event, this gap is not likely to be long enough. Abbott will almost certainly have to wait to begin his quest for a trigger once the new Senate forms. He might then be able to initiate a double dissolution around mid-2015. If all goes his way, Parliament might repeal the carbon tax later that year.

By this time, the carbon scheme will have operated for more than three years. Ending it will impose enormous compliance costs on business and destabilise several industries and markets.

Even if Abbott is right about the negative impact of the carbon tax, this may be outweighed by the cost of dismantling it.

The loss may not be borne only by industry – there may also be a massive burden on the public purse.

Section 51(31) of the constitution says that federal laws which impose an "acquisition of property" must grant "just terms". It is arguable that repealing the carbon tax will acquire the property of those involved, leaving the Commonwealth liable to pay compensation of hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars.

Parliament can normally repeal a tax without compensation. But the government's Clean Energy Bill states that the new carbon units at the heart of the scheme are "personal property", subject to ownership and transfer like other forms of property.

The carbon tax cannot be repealed without also eradicating the value of these rights. It is almost certain that any attempt to do so will attract a High Court challenge. Businesses and investors will want compensation for the losses they suffer due to a change in federal law.

I am by no means convinced that an Abbott government would be forced by the High Court to pay compensation. Indeed, the case might be won by arguing that carbon units are in reality mere creations of legislation that can be freely altered by future laws.

Nonetheless, High Court cases on this topic are notoriously difficult to predict. Even if a High Court challenge failed, the matter would produce great uncertainty and could take up to a year to resolve.

Abbott is uncompromising in his desire to repeal the carbon tax but there are major legal obstacles in his path, which may render his already herculean task impossible to fulfil.

George Williams is the Anthony Mason professor of law at the University of NSW.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Could you explain to me what will be the net reduction in carbon emitted globally if this tax is introduced, or if Abbott's plan is introduced? Percentages will do but citation of sources would be helpful.
I find it impossible to work out WTF is the real position.
 

Bruwheresmycar

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Australia's plans alone wont change the total number of emissions globally. We only emit about 1.5% of total global greenhouse emissions. But a joint effort can reduce, or at least stop the rise in greenhouse pollution globally (as many countries are already doing). So the argument is; we may as well join them being the top co2 emitter per capita.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Putting a limit on pollution is a good start. It seems the more the world produces, the higher pollution gets with no repercussions. Which is a type of negative externality.

This is all the carbon tax is doing, putting a cost on the pollution. Then when we move into an ETS, we can start controlling the level of co2 pollution and limit it to the set targets.

Will it help prevent damage/changes to the ecosystem? If the world gets a move on, yes.

As for what Julia Gillard actually believes or stands for on the topic of anything...How long is a piece of string!

Can we please just clear something up here and now so we don't fall into the same incorrect terminology that mires the politics on this issue.

It is putting a limit on Carbon Dioxide Emissions, not 'pollution'. Yes, you can consider too much Carbon Dioxide pollution, but in itself it is a quite important part of this world existing. No where have I read that this tax is anything about reducing other (and often more damaging) pollutants, so please don't say it is about 'putting a limit on pollution'.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Could you explain to me what will be the net reduction in carbon emitted globally if this tax is introduced, or if Abbott's plan is introduced? Percentages will do but citation of sources would be helpful.
I find it impossible to work out WTF is the real position.

Effectively the net reduction would be zero.Hence many calling this to be put on hold until China and the US are ready to act.

What makes this policy even worse is that it has disincentives for lower income earners to actually reduce their emissions. Under this policy they will be better off with the carbon tax than they were before - so why would they care about reducing their emissions, and what will be the driving forces for cleaner energy?

Another one of those 'problems for all Australians' that only half the population pay for. Just like the flood levy.

It would be very hard to convince me that one of the motivations for taxes like this isn't wealth redistribution. (PS do you think that the wealth is being redistributed towards or away from Labor voters?)
 

Bruwheresmycar

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Talk about arguing over semantics... We all know co2 is a vital part of the atmosphere and we've been through this already (so i'm pretty sure you knew what I meant), if you object to my terminology just say so. Don't try to make it look like a point against my post.

The Earth doesn't require us to pollute billions of tons of co2 into the atmosphere every year to keep it alive. It could do without any of it actually. So it is in a sense, pollution.

There are other harmful gases but none are being emitted (by humans) on the same scale as co2 as far as I'm aware.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Talk about arguing over semantics... We all know co2 is a vital part of the atmosphere and we've been through this already (so i'm pretty sure you knew what I meant), if you object to my terminology just say so. Don't try to make it look like a point against my post.

The Earth doesn't require us to pollute billions of tons of co2 into the atmosphere every year to keep it alive. It could do without any of it actually. So it is in a sense, pollution.

There are other harmful gases but none are being emitted (by humans) on the same scale as co2 as far as I'm aware.

I object to you using the overall term 'pollution' to describe CO2. You didn't even both to call it Carbon Pollution so you are implying this policy is about all pollution, when it clearly isn't.

It is so far from accurate that I doubt you could classify that as arguing over 'semantics'?

You are one of the ones that wants accuracy in reporting, science and discussion in this thread - why shouldn't that also apply to yourself?
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
That's right Scotty, don't debate the point. Make up something else to debate. Good strategy.

Meanwhile, another self taught "climate scientist" had to be shot down by some real climate scientists. Anyone recognise any of those theories the Holy Father is spewing forth?

http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/10/28/climate-scientists-slam-george-pells-utter-rubbish-claims/

Climate scientists slam George Pell’s ‘utter rubbish’ claims
by Graham Readfearn
Leading climate change researchers have launched a scathing attack on a speech delivered this week by Cardinal George Pell, describing it as “dreadful”, “utter rubbish” and “flawed”.

The Archbishop of Sydney Cardinal Pell, Australia’s most senior Catholic, is a long-time denier of the risks posed by human-caused climate change.

But he has taken his climate confusion right to the heart of England’s Catholic church, with a speech (you can read the whole thing here) delivered at Westminster’s Cathedral Hall.

During the speech, Pell claimed that global warming has “stopped”, that CO2 was “not a pollutant, but part of the stuff of life” and that if carbon dioxide in the atmosphere was doubled, then “plants would love it”.

The speech was given at the invitation of the Global Warming Policy Foundation — a think-tank founded in November 2009 by former UK chancellor Lord Nigel Lawson. An edited version of the speech was reproduced in The Australian yesterday.

Crikey asked several climate change researchers, including senior figures at the Bureau of Meteorology, CSIRO and leading research groups, to review the statements in Pell’s speech.

Professor Chris Turney, ARC Laureate Fellow in Climate Change at the University of New South Wales, told Crikey: “It’s all dreadful stuff, cherry picking statements to suit a belief which just doesn’t stack up against the weight of scientific evidence.”

In one section of the speech, Pell cites several climate change sceptics as proof that the Inter-governmental Panel on Climate Change, which provides guidance on the science to the UN, was “essentially reliant on computer modelling and lack empirical support”.

But Dr Karl Braganza, Manager of Climate Monitoring at the Bureau of Meteorology, said: “The notion that climate science lacks empirical evidence is specious. There is lots of observational evidence for the greenhouse effect, and the enhanced greenhouse effect.

“More generally, the idea that climate models are somehow outside the realms of normal science is flawed. Complex system modeling using extremely well established physics and chemistry is the basis of modern day science. We use technology on a daily basis that is the result of insights from such modelling.”

Professor Steven Sherwood, of the UNSW Climate Change Research Centre, also said the claim the IPCC lacked empirical support was “false”.

He added: “IPCC estimates of past and future global warming are based mainly on analyses of past climate variations published in the peer-reviewed literature. Computer models are used mainly to test that we understand what the past data are telling, us, and to predict regional details of future climates.”

Dr James Risbey, a senior climatologist at CSIRO Marine and Atmospheric Research, said: “Pell’s point that the IPCC’s conclusions are essentially dependent on the models is wrong. Most of what is known about climate change and summarized in the IPCC is grounded on solid radiative physics and thermodynamic principles, and is well verified in the observational and paleoclimate record.”

Citing University of Adelaide geologist and mining company director Professor Ian Plimer, Pell said in the speech major volcanic eruptions were not being considered by climate models.

But Mike Sandiford, professor of geology at the University of Melbourne, said: “Pell refers to geologist Ian Plimer’s estimate of volcanic contributions to CO2 emissions, but volcanologists have demonstrated that Plimer’s estimate of volcanogenic CO2 emissions is too high by a factor of about 100. Plimer is just plain wrong on the volcanogenic CO2 emissions, and should be ignored.”

Professor Andy Pitman, director of the ARC Centre of Excellence for Climate System Science at the University of News South Wales, described the speech as “a combination of irrelevant statements with statements that are utter rubbish”.

At one point, Pell claims that “since 2001 carbon dioxide has increased by five per cent, but the atmosphere has failed to warm”.

Professor Pitman said: “This is a red-herring. CO2 acts on long time scales and there is literature — peer reviewed literature — that explains this in terms of masking of the warming by aerosols and La Nina.”

On a claim that the world had “cooled slightly” since 1998, Pitman added: “Whether it did or did not warm in a 10-year period is utterly irrelevant to global warming which is a multi-decadal phenomenon described by climatological timescales. Pell has presumably been told this but his statements continue to confuse climate CHANGE with climate VARIABILITY.”

Professor Roger Jones, of Victoria University, was a lead IPCC author for a 2007 report on “New Methods and Characterisations of the Future.”

Jones reviewed a section of the speech where Pell said climate change variants including “water vapour multipliers, sunspot activities and cloud formation, as well as deforestation, soil carbon and aerosols” were not well understood, as were “asteroid and comet impacts, and variations in cosmic rays.”

Jones said: “It’s hard to tell whether this is Gish’s Gallop, Pell’s Polka or Plimer’s Passe Doble. It’s a variant of yeti spotting when you’re completely lost and trying to convince your followers you know what you’re doing.”

He said water vapours were part of climate models, but there was still uncertainty about their distribution in atmosphere.

Jones added: “Clouds are pretty well agreed to be a positive feedback — this is not accepted by the denial industry. The background incidence of asteroids and comets is somewhat infrequent and a red herring. The other stuff is just not evident in past climates. The orbital characteristics are known but not big drivers on current timescales.”

As well as being at odds with the scientific evidence, Pell’s statement is also at odds with the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, which in April said: “We call on all people and nations to recognise the serious and potentially irreversible impacts of global warming caused by the anthropogenic emissions of greenhouse gases and other pollutants, and by changes in forests, wetlands, grasslands, and other land uses.”

Professor Turney added: “The simple fact is greenhouse gases keep the planet warm. Indeed, if they were to disappear from the atmosphere overnight, the temperature would plummet from a balmy average of around 14C to some -21C.

“If we flood the atmosphere with carbon, putting more greenhouse gases into the air, you would therefore expect the planet to warm further.

“As the famous quote goes, ‘Every scientific truth goes through three states: first, people say it conflicts with the Bible; next, they say it has been discovered before; lastly they say they always believed it.’ Looks like some are still in the first state.”
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
That's right Scotty, don't debate the point. Make up something else to debate. Good strategy.

Meanwhile, another self taught "climate scientist" had to be shot down by some real climate scientists. Anyone recognise any of those theories the Holy Father is spewing forth?

http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/10/28/climate-scientists-slam-george-pells-utter-rubbish-claims/

Sorry I thought being inaccurate was an issue in this debate. You certain dont like it when the deniers do it, and I bet you'd call me out if I did it.

But why don't you just dismiss everything I say out of hand. Good strategy.

You must need a crane to get on that high horse of yours.
 

Bruwheresmycar

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
I wasn't going to, but I'll explain one last time.

I wasn't calling all Co2 in the atmosphere pollution, I stated that man-made co2 emissions are pollution.

By (what appears to be) your definition of pollution, nothing is in fact pollution. Every single chemical/gas is important to the earth in some shape or form. Every chemical has it's use in the oceans, atmosphere... you name it. So if my company was releasing billions of tons of dangerous chemicals into the environment I could object to the term "pollution" simply because those chemicals might have some use to some aspect of the eco-system on a much smaller scale.

-------------

Back on topic. George Pell's rants are always a good laugh. Just a shame whatever he says/writes gets published on a national scale...
 
C

chief

Guest
I'm a big fan of the Australian newspaper. But why on earth they published George Pell talking about Climate Change science really is inexplicable. Stop me if I am wrong, but he is a creationist isn't he?
 

kambah mick

Chris McKivat (8)
I don't believe he is a creationist. He seems to be one of those people who takes a stance on matters according to politics, ie if a stance is backed by ultra conservatives, he will back it too, alternatively any progressive stance is automatically rejected by him.
 

Bruwheresmycar

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
I'm a big fan of the Australian newspaper. But why on earth they published George Pell talking about Climate Change science really is inexplicable. Stop me if I am wrong, but he is a creationist isn't he?

I don't recall him ever talking on evolution. Typically the religious leaders in this country find middle ground on topics like that (ie: divinely inspired evolution...). I think he's much more active on the anti-stem cell research/anti abortion/anti euthanasia front.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Sorry I thought being inaccurate was an issue in this debate. You certain dont like it when the deniers do it, and I bet you'd call me out if I did it.

Scotty there is a difference between being wrong, and someone correcting you and being a pedant thereby distracting debate from the real issues. I'll let you think about that.

But why don't you just dismiss everything I say out of hand. Good strategy.

Because you said something I agreed with once and I like to give someone the benefit of the doubt no matter how many times they disappoint me subsequently.

You must need a crane to get on that high horse of yours.

A chopper.
 
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