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The Climate Change Thread

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Scotty

David Codey (61)
It is only dodgy if someone is making a personal gain out of it. Greenpeace is non-profit so how is it dodgy that a scientist working for Greenpeace is also an author of the IPCC report? Where is he making a personal gain? He's certainly being consistent, but that is different to being dodgy.

You need to have a consistent rationale for making a post, not just prejudice. Perhaps that is why some of your posts are considered irrelevant.

The Greenpeace employee in question is Sven Teske and I can not find anything that remotely refers to him as a scientist. He is quite often referred to as a renewable energy 'campaigner' though. The IPCC and only the IPCC seem to have given him a scientific title by including him the report in the first place.

The IPCC organisation and report is meant to be giving policy makers unbiased information on which to base future policy. Make no mistake, despite Greenpeace being not for profit, this does not mean they are not biased, and it certainly does not mean that Teske, a strong advocate for renewables, especially solar is also not biased. And yet you would prefer to ignore evidence to the contrary and defend the compromised procedures of the IPCC.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Nothing to worry about here. I'm sure we are all comfortable with these guys being in charge of at least partly shaping this worlds future:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...The-IPCC-declares-Greenpeace-in-our-time.html

Not surprisingly, expert critics of the IPCC have been quick to point out how this seems to reinforce the revelations 18 months ago, which did more to discredit the UN body's authority than anything in its history. At the centre of those scandals was the discovery that the more alarming predictions made by the IPCC's major 2007 report – such as a claim that most of the Himalayan glaciers would be gone by 2035 – were not based on proper science at all. They were simply scare stories originating from environmentalist lobby groups, used in a way that broke all the IPCC's own rules, which insist that its reports should be based only on properly accredited scientific studies.

As the IPCC's supposedly impartial chairman, and arguably the world's most influential public official, Dr Pachauri – whose Delhi-based research institute is heavily involved in various renewable energy projects – has also written forewords to two earlier Greenpeace publications.

A long chapter on wind energy, for instance, brushes aside some of the more peripheral objections raised to wind turbines, such as that they kill vast numbers of birds and bats, or have a damaging effect on house prices. And in all its 108 pages, there is no real attempt to address the central objection to wind turbines, which is that they are a ludicrously inefficient and expensive way to produce electricity – so unreliable, due to the intermittency of the wind, that the derisory amount of power they produce can make no significant contribution to meeting the world's energy needs.

Nowhere does the report properly address the major defect of these turbines, that they only generate, on average, 25 per cent or less of their nominal capacity. The figures the report gives for this, in a brief passage that skirts round the issue, are absurdly exaggerated. It claims that US turbines achieve 30 per cent of their capacity, without pointing out that the output of all 12,000 turbines in America equates on average to no more than that of two large coal-fired power stations. And nowhere does the chapter mention the mind-boggling cost of these machines, which no one would dream of building without the aid of subsidies that in Britain amount to 100 per cent of the value of the electricity they produce (and 200 per cent for offshore turbines).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...f-Dr-Rajendra-Pachauris-charity-accounts.html
 

Bruwheresmycar

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
I don't remember much you producing much science in this thread either. You don't want to engage in debate of what I post at all, you just want to describe is is 'lacking credibility' and look the other way. It seems that everything that you don't agree with you deem 'irrelevant'. No one is credible unless they hold the same views that you do!

Are you saying you know more about the climate than Anthony Watts?

Pasting an article in this thread and then telling others that they should "engage in a debate" isn't how it works.

For a debate to be started, you should take Mr Watts 3 best points from that article and present them here. Then we can criticize/debate/whatever.

We could sit here and quote articles (debunking climate science denalists) all day, but that wouldn't do much. Cutter has made many positive claims throughout this thread that can be debated, so if anything either someone should pick up on one of those or one of you guys can present your favorite arguments against climate science.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Scotty, the thing about supporting the scientific consensus is that I don't need to produce new science. I can rely on the science in the IPCC report. Its fundamental conclusion is that humans are contributing to climate change. On the other hand, the difficulty with disputing the consensus scientific position, as you do, is that you will be asked to support your views with credible science challenging the consensus. You haven't been able to do that.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Scotty, the thing about supporting the scientific consensus is that I don't need to produce new science. I can rely on the science in the IPCC report. Its fundamental conclusion is that humans are contributing to climate change. On the other hand, the difficulty with disputing the consensus scientific position, as you do, is that you will be asked to support your views with credible science challenging the consensus. You haven't been able to do that.

I fail to see how you can blindly rely on the 'science' in the IPCC report with the controversy surrounding it over the last few years. Most of what I have posted here revolves around the politics of the issue and the ability to trust the scientist and the other elites running the IPCC. If you don't see a conflict of interest in the IPCC renewable report being written by a Greenpeace renewables campaigner, then I will give up now. Either you are purposefully ignoring this point altogether, or you truly do believe that the ends justifies the means. Not to mention that the head of the IPCC, Dr Pachauri gains considerably from any increase in renewables and renewable research. If you are not willing to engage on these points, then I fail to see how we are having any debate at all, and therefore the thread may as well be closed off.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Pasting an article in this thread and then telling others that they should "engage in a debate" isn't how it works.

For a debate to be started, you should take Mr Watts 3 best points from that article and present them here. Then we can criticize/debate/whatever.

We could sit here and quote articles (debunking climate science denalists) all day, but that wouldn't do much. Cutter has made many positive claims throughout this thread that can be debated, so if anything either someone should pick up on one of those or one of you guys can present your favorite arguments against climate science.

Sorry I didn't realise that providing new information was allowed in a discussion. I'd better just go and tell the mods that no one is allowed to link an article for discussion anymore. Should make for a few changes around here.

Thanks for the condescension by the way.
 

Ruggo

Mark Ella (57)
This thread was cursed the moment it was posted in the politics sub-forum. The topic is worth two seperete threads. One being "the politics of climate change" and the other being "the science of climate change".

The topics of climate change and suspected human induced climate change need to be seperated and they are being intertwined to push an agenda. Given the nature of the debate the hypothysis can be manipulated to pre determine the outcome. Carter is a classic at thiis. Among sifting through the bullshit that has clouded this debate, my personal view is that we don't know the human impacts on climate change but for me that is enough to iniate a proactive response. The future is unprecidented with projected population and resource demand so I believe we must act now.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
I fail to see how you can blindly rely on the 'science' in the IPCC report with the controversy surrounding it over the last few years. Most of what I have posted here revolves around the politics of the issue and the ability to trust the scientist and the other elites running the IPCC. If you don't see a conflict of interest in the IPCC renewable report being written by a Greenpeace renewables campaigner, then I will give up now. Either you are purposefully ignoring this point altogether, or you truly do believe that the ends justifies the means. Not to mention that the head of the IPCC, Dr Pachauri gains considerably from any increase in renewables and renewable research. If you are not willing to engage on these points, then I fail to see how we are having any debate at all, and therefore the thread may as well be closed off.

The conclusion of the report isn't in issue. I don't blindly rely on it. I know that there are thousands of scientists who contributed to it and that that conclusion is based on enormous numbers of peer reviewed articles and studies. The points you raise above are irrelevant as to whether that conclusion is correct. You haven't provided any scientific evidence to the contrary. You're strategy is to evade debating the main issue by continually raising red herrings. The points you raise are irrelevant in the context of disputing the conclusion that humans are contributing to climate change. They may be relevant in other arguments in other times but not to that fundamental point. You dispute that conclusion and yet provide nothing to the contrary. There is no value engaging on these side issues until you deal with the main point.
 

Bruwheresmycar

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Sorry I didn't realise that providing new information was allowed in a discussion. I'd better just go and tell the mods that no one is allowed to link an article for discussion anymore. Should make for a few changes around here.

Thanks for the condescension by the way.

Is asking someone to summarize an article they presented now considered a crime? You posted new information and i asked about it. If you don't want to summarize his points that is fine, but don't expect us to take anything from it. I just assumed you wanted to "debate" the article seeing as you implied Cutter thinks he "knows more than Mr Watts" for not taking the article as seriously as you would like. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Is asking someone to summarize an article they presented now considered a crime? You posted new information and i asked about it. If you don't want to summarize his points that is fine, but don't expect us to take anything from it. I just assumed you wanted to "debate" the article seeing as you implied Cutter thinks he "knows more than Mr Watts" for not taking the article as seriously as you would like. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

No problems. The point about Cutter vs Anthony Watts was that he summarily dismissed Watts as a 'right wing blogger', implying that he (Watts) has no knowledge of the climate, or at least less knowledge than Cutter does himself. I doubt when Cutter saw the 'whatsupwiththat' in the link, he even bothered clicking on it, and so I doubt any information put forward to a true believer such as himself would matter, as it likely would be dismissed out of hand.

PS the article is only this plus a graph, and don't know how to put a graph here so you need to click on it yourself.

The first IPCC report in 1990 chaired by Prof. Houghton made a prediction for a rise in global temperatures of 1.1 degrees C from 1990 until 2030. This prediction can now be compared with the actual data as measured up to now (May 2011).

The data in the graph indicates a rise of 0.4 degrees over the last 20 years, so in line with their 1.1 degree prediction over 40 years, however the data is also showing a reduction in the temperature over the last few years. It maybe another 5-10 years before we can truly know if the prediction is at all accurate.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
The conclusion of the report isn't in issue. I don't blindly rely on it. I know that there are thousands of scientists who contributed to it and that that conclusion is based on enormous numbers of peer reviewed articles and studies. The points you raise above are irrelevant as to whether that conclusion is correct. You haven't provided any scientific evidence to the contrary. You're strategy is to evade debating the main issue by continually raising red herrings. The points you raise are irrelevant in the context of disputing the conclusion that humans are contributing to climate change. They may be relevant in other arguments in other times but not to that fundamental point. You dispute that conclusion and yet provide nothing to the contrary. There is no value engaging on these side issues until you deal with the main point.

A few points:

1. I don't recall ever coming out and saying 'I don't believe in climate change', most of what I have posted either comes under a) I don't like our politicians response to it, b) I don't like the process that many of the authors of the IPCC and scientist have engaged in and c) there are a lot of contrary views out there that we should not blindly ignore

2. A conclusion of any report where by its parts can be called into question is always at issue. Even if they aren't incorrect, as big an issue is the trust that politicians and the general public put in such a report being even and unbiased. The fact that the chairman of the IPCC stands to gain (and already has gained) from the reports recommendations should be a concern for everyone. I don't find it acceptable, and I don't see how you can (but of course, just like every other post I've put this thread you will refuse to respond to this, and instead say it is just a red herring).

3. If you only want to debate the fundamental point, then don't bother responding to my posts until I have put forward a scientific counter to it (although I suspect if I do you will just say 'it isn't peer reviewed so I'm not reading it'). If you want to debate or respond to some other side issues such as the greenpeace author, such as the head of the IPCC, such their predictions being wildly wrong, then please do actually engage in this. At the moment it seems to me that I throw out all sorts of information on this subject, and I just get a variation of the same post back from you, without any thought whatsoever to the content of my posting.

Here is a question for everyone:

You have a nice ripe apple, and you want to give it to a homeless person, but you find out that it has a worm in it. Do you:

a) Ignore the worm and just give it to them saying that it will fulfill their hunger needs
b) Cut out the worm and show the remainder to the person to let them know it is ok
c) Throw out the apple and go and find something else for this person to eat
 

Ruggo

Mark Ella (57)
To answer your qustion Scotty, I think Rudd and Turnbull pretty much had had option B nutted out.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
The concern for me is that the IPCC have currently gone for option a). Make a mistake (or maybe not by accident) then just cover it up. It doesn't engender confidence in their outcomes or processes.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
The concern for me is that the IPCC have currently gone for option a). Make a mistake (or maybe not by accident) then just cover it up. It doesn't engender confidence in their outcomes or processes.

Scotty your posturing over this is tedious. There is no credible science countering the conclusions of the IPCC report. In a report that long, I'm not surprised to see that there are discrepancies and it's right that those are investigated and resolved. But to make those the primary issues is either foolish in that you fail to recognise the significance of the primary conclusions or suggests an agenda. I'm not sure why you would have an agenda...

Here is an article in which the author refutes the commonly reported misinformation on whether the globe is warming (and which you've obligingly repeated above). Whilst it is an opinion piece, the measured global warming he sites is not opinion. It is fact.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/half-the-truth-on-emissions-20110627-1gne1.html

Half the truth on emissions
John Cook
June 28, 2011


A Yiddish proverb states ''a half truth is a whole lie''. By withholding vital information, it's possible to lead you towards the opposite conclusion to the one you would get from considering the full picture. In Bob Carter's opinion piece on this page yesterday, this technique of cherry-picking half-truths is on full display, with frequent examples of statements that distort climate science.

The partial truths are further bolstered by scientific statements that have almost no basis in fact. It is not surprising that people present such fallacies, since the blogosphere is full of climate pseudo-science, but it is surprising that newspapers are still reporting such statements. Opinion is one thing, but scientific fact is another. Every major science body in the world has effectively refuted the assertions made by Carter.

So what is the full picture? To understand what's happening to the global climate, we need to look at temperature change over the entire planet. Two scientific teams - NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies and the European Centre for Medium Range Weather Forecast - have constructed temperature records spanning the whole globe. Both find consistent results, using independent methods, with the two hottest years on record being 2010 and 2005. Both find the Arctic is warming faster than the rest of the planet, with melting sea ice acting as a positive feedback that amplifies the warming.


More importantly, temperature trends are not established by drawing lines between individual warm and cool years. It's the long-term trend that counts and the most recent decade was the warmest on record. Long-term warming trends are agreed upon by all international meteorological agencies.

But there's a bigger picture still. The temperature record tells us what's happening to surface temperature. But signs of warming are being observed all over the climate system. Over the past decade, ice loss from the huge ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica has been steadily accelerating. Currently, Greenland is losing 300 billion tonnes of ice a year. Over the same period, Arctic sea ice has been thinning and melting, glaciers have been shrinking at an accelerating rate and seasons are shifting due to warming temperatures. All these facts, including their uncertainties, are not considered in isolation by scientists; it's the overall picture that matters.

What's driving this warming? There is no mystery or guesswork about the cause of recent global warming - it can be directly measured. Satellites observe less radiation escaping to space at those exact wavelengths that carbon dioxide absorbs radiation. Less heat escaping to space means more heat returning to Earth and this is confirmed by surface measurements. An increased greenhouse effect should also cause a cooling of the upper atmosphere, and this is confirmed by satellites and weather balloons. From these observations, scientists concluded ''this experimental data should effectively end the argument by sceptics that no experimental evidence exists for the connection between greenhouse gas increases in the atmosphere and global warming''.

Enter Bob Carter and his deliberate brand of climate cherry-picking and false, but plausible, assertions. He has long hung his hat on the proposition the climate has been cooling since 1998. But with 2005 and 2010 being the hottest years on record, he resorts to cherry-picking which dataset to use. Rather than use temperature records that cover the entire globe, he opts for datasets that do not include the Arctic region, where warming is the strongest. These temperature records underestimate recent warming and are the darling of those who wish to deny global warming is happening.

The half-truths become more tenuous as Carter's piece progresses. He argues that carbon dioxide is beneficial as it acts as a valuable plant fertiliser. Studies show mixed results for carbon dioxide fertilisation for different species and different climate regimes. But this line of argument fails to recognise that plants also need water and the right temperature range to flourish. Over the past 40 years as temperatures have risen, drought severity has also increased. This is exerting significant pressure on agriculture as water supplies become strained.

Labelling Carter's final ''scientific fact'' as a half-truth is giving it too much credence. According to Carter, it's a fact that "extra carbon dioxide helps to shrink the Sahara Desert, green the planet and feed the world. Ergo, carbon dioxide is neither a pollutant nor dangerous, but an environmental benefit."

These are ludicrous statements that fly in the face of 20 years of scientific research. Rapidly increasing carbon dioxide will most likely lead to a rapidly changing climate, and decades of research has not painted such a rosy picture of the environmental and socio-economic impacts. Dismissing all of that science on the basis that carbon dioxide is plant food is like dismissing that effluent can ever be a pollutant since blood and bone gets put on garden beds.

It is not really possible to assess Carter's other assertions on the economy since, unlike climate, the economy is not constrained by fundamental physical laws of the universe. Nevertheless, it is interesting that a self-professed sceptic is able to present, as fact, that reducing carbon emissions will result in the closing down of the Australian economy. This is despite the fact that numerous economic analyses find the benefits of climate action outweigh the costs several times over.

It is also interesting that self-professed sceptics, who believe that there is simply no way of determining to what degree carbon dioxide concentrations will affect climate, can precisely estimate the effect of Australia's emissions on global-mean temperature. Everyone understands that global efforts are required to reduce carbon pollution. Australia, as one of the highest carbon emitters per capita, is in an ideal position to positively influence global negotiations. Those who argue that Australia is an insignificant player underestimate our role on the global stage and our potential to be a leader in reducing carbon pollution.

Bob Carter exhorts us to "pay attention to the facts and keep an open mind". Ironically, he has closed his mind to any evidence that conflicts with his preconceived views and suspends critical thought when presenting his own doomsday scenarios. Carter's article shows how cherry-picked information can mislead and distort the science - embodying the proverb, "a half-truth is a whole lie".

John Cook runs the website skepticalscience.com and is co-author of Climate Change Denial: Heads in the Sand, with environmental scientist Haydn Washington.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
We could keep flying these sorts of things back and forth everyday.

http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/...s-he-can-directly-measure-the-climate-system/

'There is no mystery or guesswork about the cause of recent global warming – it can be directly measured. Satellites observe less radiation escaping to space at those exact wavelengths that carbon dioxide absorbs radiation. Less heat escaping to space means more heat returning to Earth and this is confirmed by surface measurements.

Currently, Greenland is losing 300 billion tonnes of ice a year. Over the same period, Arctic sea ice has been thinning and melting, glaciers have been shrinking at an accelerating rate and seasons are shifting due to warming temperatures.'

There is no mystery or guesswork that Cook is clueless. There hasn’t been any recent warming, despite Romm’s “super-exponential” growth in CO2 over the last decade.

Click on the link to see the graphs he then uses.


You've quoted a guy that seems to have a lot of people that are able to discredit him. I'm sure Carter has many to discredit him. What this all indicates to me is that there has been nothing that can accurately predict or determine what is occurring. I think we are right to question both sides of the argument and particularly when that argument is presented by a political organisation for a self serving purpose. I believe that the majority of information from 'skeptics' that I have read is from people that do not have a vested interest. There is so much information out there and some much dissension, that only one thing is obvious - nothing has been proven past all doubt. It is clearly too complex for that to occur until we have consensus between observations and predictions. We don't yet have that. Far from it.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
I'll just add the following before someone gets in first:

The normal comment is something like 'better to do something just to be safe'. I'm all for doing something, but I'm not all for doing something that will be for nothing. That is the case with both sides of politics policies in this country. They are both likely to lead to nothing except another $2000 a year out of the pockets of mid to high earners, to be then redistributed to lower earners.

The carbon dioxide discussion has evolved to 'carbon pollution', to the point that it has wiped out all other discussion of real pollution in our atmosphere. And a few questions:

1. Does Carbon = Carbon Dioxide - no, of course not
2. Is Carbon Dioxide = pollution - no, of course not

I do advocate further research in renewable technologies. It is all about sustainability of this planet. I have even mentioned in this thread that a small carbon tax, paid by all, to go directly to investment into renewables is the way to go. Get them on par with other energy generation. Create an industry where we become world leaders in.

Sustainability is a term that gets used often in the construction industry, but very rarely by politicians when talking about energy production. Clearly using coal and nuclear power relies on a finite resource, so we will need to increase our reliance on renewables over time to mitigate against the increasing difficulties in mining the required materials. Slowly but surely replace, but don't get into this ridiculous churn of funds that the IPCC and UN currently is involved in.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Does anyone know if the IPCC is a 'carbon neutral' organisation? (And this includes their delegate meetings and conferences.)
 

matty_k

Peter Johnson (47)
Staff member
Brian Dunning is great.

His Homoeopathy episode is a cracker.

So back on track. It is a great read. I very much like the way the author lays out ways that both sides can reach a mutual conclusion.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
At least Martin Ferguson is sensible about future power generation in this country. It is a sad state in politics these days that the sensible and sometimes intelligent ones don't get to the positions they deserve.

http://www.climatespectator.com.au/...paign=4d17caba14-CSPEC_DAILY&utm_medium=email

You might have to sign up to view this.

Energy Minister Martin Ferguson appeared to give the strongest hint yet that the government is considering a buyout of some brown coal generation capacity as part of its carbon pricing and compensation package. At a luncheon in Sydney to discuss the prospects for nuclear energy with nuclear advocate Ziggy Switkowski, Ferguson focused on the importance of ensuring energy security, and the need to retire coal-fired generation assets, “at a point,” to achieve that aim.

That phrase – “at a point” – suggested to some that he was considering a buyout, which has been proposed by some in the industry to ensure a more orderly transition than might occur if left only to the market. Two owners of brown coal generators – International Power (Hazelwood and Loy Yang) and TRUenergy (Yallourn) – have been pushing the buyout line, and it is known to have formed part of the deliberations of the multi-party committee. Victoria had proposed a similar buyout, but decided it did not have the means and it was best left to the federal Government.

On nuclear, Ferguson said no decision would be taken anytime soon within Labor, but he said it was inevitable if renewable sources failed to offer a baseload alternative. “Our requirement is to invest in other forms of clean energy,” he said. “If they don't produce baseload reliable energy at a reasonable cost then Australia at a point is going to have the tough decision about where is that source of clean energy, and nuclear will kick in at that stage," Ferguson said. He noted, however, that some universities are rebuilding their nuclear science departments.
 
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