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The Player Points System

Discussion in 'Shute Shield' started by Hugh Jarse, Jul 21, 2015.

  1. Hugh Jarse Rocky Elsom (76)

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    I always worry about the validity of electronic documents with the name "Draft" in their title, particularly when they don't have any markings on them to indicate that they have been approved for use or are actually current.

    Notwithstanding that, it is good to see the Player Points System explained at Rule 7.
    These are:
    A - 20 points
    A player who has played a 15 a side test for a Tier 1 international Union

    B - 16 points
    A player who has at least five Super rugby or Heineken Cup caps or;
    Has played 15 a side for a tier two Pacific Island international Union (e.g. Fiji, Samoa, Tonga)

    C - 10 points
    A player who holds a current Super Rugby contract or;
    A player who has played (i.e. taken the field):
    in 50 or more 1st grade games in NSW Premiership competition (in total across any clubs) or;
    Australian age representative (U20) in 2013 or 2014
    or;
    A player who has at least five SANZAR Union 1st division provincial championship (e.g. ITM Cup or Currie Cup) caps from the 2013 or 2014 season
    or;
    Aviva (formerly Guinness) Premiership, RaboDirectPro12 (formerly Magners League), French top 14, Amlin Challenge (formerly European Challenge) Cup or LV (formerly Anglo Welsh) Cup in 2013 or 2014.

    D - 6 points
    Australian schoolboy representative in 2013 and or 2014;
    A player who has played;
    between 35 and 49 1st grade games in the Premiership competition (in total across any Clubs) or;
    more than 50% of the 1st grade Colts games at a different Premiership Club in 2014

    E - 4 points
    A player who is not an Australian Citizen, AND was not a resident in Australia during both 2013 AND 2014
    OR
    a player who has played Division 1 at the Australian Schoolboys championships in 2014

    F - 2 points
    All other players

    At the very least these need to be modified somewhat to include recent developments in NRC, State Under 20's etc. How about these?
    Category A - 20 points
    1. A player who has played a 15 a side test for an International Union with a World Rugby Ranking in the top 10 (as at 1 Jan 2015).

    Category B - 16 points
    1. A player who has at least five Super rugby or Heineken Cup caps.
    2. A player who has played 15 a side test for an International Union with a World Ranking in from 11 to 20 (as at 1 Jan 2015).

    Category C - 10 points
    1. A player who holds a current Super Rugby contract.
    2. A player who has played (i.e. taken the field) in 50 or more 1st grade games in Premiership competition (in total across any clubs in Sydney, Brisbane or Canberra).
    3. A player who has played, or been selected, for the Australian U20 team in 2013 or 2014.
    4. A player who has at least five SANZAR Union 1st division provincial championship (e.g. Australian NRC, New Zealand's ITM Cup or South African Currie Cup) caps from the 2013 or 2014 season
    5. A player who has at least five Aviva (formerly Guinness) Premiership, RaboDirectPro12 (formerly Magners League), French top 14, Amlin Challenge (formerly European Challenge) Cup or LV (formerly Anglo Welsh) Cup caps from 2013 or 2014.

    Category D (or D1) - 8 Points
    1. A player who has played for another International Union at Under 20 age group level.
    2. A player who has played in the National Under 20 Championships in 2013 or 2014.
    3. A player holding an EPS, WTG or similar contract arrangement with a Super Rugby Franchise

    Category E (or D2) - 6 points
    1. A player selected for an Australian Schools Rugby Union representative team (including Schoolboy A or Schoolboys Barbarians) in 2013 and/or 2014, even if they were not "capped" due to an injury.
    2. A player who is in the train on squad for NSW for the current years National U20 Championships.
    3. A player who has played between 35 and 49 1st grade games in the Premiership competition (in total across any Clubs in ACT, Brisbane or Sydney).
    4. A player who played (ie taken the field) in 9 or more 1st grade Colts games at a different Premiership Club in 2014 at any club in ACT, Brisbane or Sydney.

    Category F (or E) - 4 points
    1. A player who is not an Australian Citizen, AND was not a resident in Australia during both 2013 AND 2014.
    2. A player who has played Division 1 at the Australian Schoolboys championships in 2014.
    3. A player who has played in two or more NRC Development Squad (or Reserve Grade) matches in 2014.

    Category G (or F) - 2 points
    1. All other players.




    Have I missed any skill/game level that should be "recognised" in a revised Player Points System for 2016?
  2. I like to watch Simon Poidevin (60)

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    In your examples above HJ.
    This year,Rory Oconnor would accrue 6 points as he played colts 1's at another club.
    However if he moved to Gordon next year after a full year in 1st grade,he would only be worth 2 points?
    What have I missed?
  3. Hugh Jarse Rocky Elsom (76)

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    ^^Didn't Rory O'Connor play 2014 Aust U20's? If so he is worth 10 points as a Category C player. This Category would apply for him in 2015 and 2016.

    And if he had not made Aust U20's, he would be Category D as a 2014 State U20 representative worth 8 points.

    How many NRC games has he played? He could be a Category C player if he has played in 5 of them - 10 points.

    If he moves club next year, his U20 or NRC Category stays with him for 2016.
    By the end of 2016 he will have played at least 2 seasons of first grade footy and would be close to Category E - 35 games of premiership footy for 2017, or may still be Category C (>5 NRC games).
    Quick Hands likes this.
  4. Quick Hands David Wilson (68)

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    IIRC Rory O'Connor played Aust 20s
  5. Dave Beat Paul McLean (56)

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    HJ - trying to follow the above, given Marlin local boy Rory has been used for some exposure. Playing good ruby at the moment Rory - keep it up.

    If he was running around with the Marlins this year am i correct in understanding he would be 5 points because of previous playing in juniors and colts?

    And other clubs are penalized with poaching points;).
  6. Hugh Jarse Rocky Elsom (76)

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    Under current rules:

    Discounts available
    Family
    Up to 5 points for new players to the club (in their first year only) for siblings of existing players that played the previous season with the club or sons of past players.

    Local
    One point per year discount (up to a maximum of four points) for players who have previously played with the club or previously played with a local junior club between U10 - Open

    Long Service
    50% discount for eight years or more service with the club for Category A, B, C or D
    one years service is deemed to be 8 games (or rep games)

    Experience
    Discount for Category A, B or C players (up to a maximum of five points) of one point per year each year they have been out of international union or Super competition representation


    Guidelines
    1. The points system applies to 1st & 2nd grade, and 1st & 2nd grade colts.
    1st Grade Cap = 100 points
    2nd Grade Cap = 60 points
    1st Grade Colts = 40 points
    2nd Grade Colts = 30 points

    2. Cap applies to starting players and fresh reserves in each grade.

    3. Players are categorised at the highest level at which they have played.

    4. Points are not cumulative throughout a season – each player is only indexed at one level as of 1st January.

    5. Discounts are not cumulative – only one type of discount may apply to a player. Where a player may be eligible for different types of discounts, Clubs should apply the highest discount available to the player.

    6. Discounts cannot index players below 50% of their base player points.

    7. Australian Schoolboy representative players, including Australia ‘A” (current or former) will not be eligible for 3rd Grade Colts.

    8. For the purposes of long service discount a minimum of eight rounds must be played to constitute a season. NB Representative seasons will count towards long service discounts.

    9. Tier 1 International Unions: Argentina, Australia, England, France, Ireland, Italy, New Zealand, Scotland, South Africa, Wales

    10. Category A and B players are only eligible to play 1st and 2nd Grade except Players who are not currently contracted and did not perform any International and or Super duties in the preceding season, are eligible for any grade and/or Colts (subject to Colts eligibility).


    HJ Comments/Considerations:
    Local Discount. 1 point per year. It may still be possible to "sign" up a boy from an AAGPS School in their Year 11, who is no longer playing for their previous junior village club. Clubs play them for trials and games outside the School season (during School Holidays), and then they arrive in Colts after they finish school with a 2 point discount, and they enter Grade with the maximum 4 point discount as a 20 year old.

    Recommend that a player must have played a minimum of 8 games with the club, or Junior Club in the District (representative games or injury dispensations available) to qualify for Local Discount.

    I feel sorry for a fellow who does a Shoulder in round 6 and is out for the season with Team Rehab. That season they will be deemed to have not counted as being a long serving member of that club. Injury dispensations should be allowed for the "8 games = a season" rule.

    Fresh Reserve discount = 100%. This is open to rorting. Perhaps the bench player must have had to have played for > 3/4 of the lower grade game time to qualify as a 0 point player. 50% discount to their score if the non-fresh reserve has played a full half of lower grade rugby, and they are classified as a fresh reserve if they played less than a full half of lower grade footy. Good idea but administratively difficult to monitor.

    Recommend introducing a guideline that a player must have played at least a full 1/2 of the lower graded fixture to not be deemed a Fresh Reserve (0 Player Points off the bench).

    Tier 1 Nations. I would change this definition to be Top 10 World Rugby ranked teams, as per the ranking on 1 January of that year.

    I would add a guideline that Under 20 players (State or International (Australia or other International Unions) are not eligible for Colts 3rds. Seems strange that Schoolboys/Schoolboys Barbarians are not eligible for Colts 3's but U20's are, not that too many U20's would be all that keen to play Colts 3's.

    State Under 20 Selection process starts prior to 1 January, and the National Competition is very early in the season. The "penalty" for State Under 20 representation should apply in the current season not the season after selection. Recommend that players in the "Train On Squad" for State U20 at 1 Jan have a Player Points category applied, even though they have not yet been formally selected for the Team. Players in this category are probably more worthy of carrying a player points burden than Australian Schoolboys/Schoolboys A/Schoolboys Barbarians from two years prior.

    How do clubs manage their player points to stay under the cap at Colts level if they have a lot of former Australian Schoolboys or U20s?
    10 point Category C Players (2014 Aust U20 players) aren't generally found in Colts 1 or 2 the year after they represent Australia. Most are no longer Under 20, or if they are, they are in Grade, or Pro Footy.

    6 Point Category D Players.
    Last years Aust Schoolboys.
    • Apply loyalty discounts. 2014 Aust Schoolboys, Ed Craig (Eastwood) and Andrew Vatuvei (2 Blues) will be reduced to 3 Player points because they have played in their respective districts for more than 3 years.
    • Play them in 3rd Grade (0 points - Pulver at Uni), 2nd Grade (like H Jones - he got loyalty discount for the Rats as well and had a brother already with the club [5 points discount in the first year]) or 1sts (Hannigan, Deegan, Kellaway all played for Wicks in Shute shield) to make space in your Colts 1 Cap.
    • The real Rock Stars who make Aust U20's will probably be away on State or National Duties until after Jnr RWC.
    Clubs with 5 or more 2014 or 2013 Aust Schoolboys on their books could feasibly play all of them in Colts 1 simultaneously and not break the player points cap but I can't recall a Colts 1 team having 6 former schoolboys in the run on team at once happening over the last 3 years. Here's how:


    The 15 players at Jarse Club Colts 1 team are:
    1. Peter Potplant - 2014 Schoolboy = 6 points (makes Aust U20's in 2015 but Player Points are calculated on 1 Jan 2015 so is not a Cat C player)
    2. Harry Hooker - 2013 Schoolboy A, non local = 5 points (6 - 1 local point for 2014 season)
    3. Iva Strong-Uppabody - 2014 Schoolboy = 3 points (6 - 3 points for playing village club footy from 10's to 13's)
    4. Nigel Nobody = 1 point ( local kid with no state schoolboy rep history)
    5. Sione Sombodi'i = 1 point (2nd year with this club, from Colts 2 last year)
    6. Oliver Ginnantonnix - 2014 Schoolboy = 3 points (Joins brother or is at Dad's old club (5 point discount not available in 2016) 6-5 family discount =2 but increased to 3 due to maximum discount of 50% of base points)
    7. William Whippet - 2014 Schoolboy = 6 points (no discount)
    8. Patrick Fitzgerald - 2013 NSW II = 2 points (2 points local discount, 1 for colts 2014 and 1 for ghost player Under 16's rego to make NSW JRU State Champs)
    9. Gerald Fitzpatrick - 2014 NSW I = 2 points (2 points local discount - junior rego from U10 - U15)
    10. David Dadzacoach - 2013 Combined States = 2 points (2 points discount - Under 13 and Colts 2014)
    11. Lionel Lifeline - 2013 Schoolboy A = 4 point (6 points - 1 point local discount from Colts 2 2014 and ghost player U16 rego for NSW JRU State Champs)
    12.Bill Battler =1 point (1 point local discount from Colts 2 2014)
    13.Bryan Bolter = 2 points (Loig recruit)
    14.Avei Aniplay'a = 1 point (local discount U10-U17)
    15.Charles Cant-Kickaball = 1 point (1 point local discount from Colts 2 2014)

    I think that is 40 player points with 6 Former Aust Schoolboys, 2 NSW Schoolboys, 1 Combined States, & 6 "normal" kids.


    If Rory O'Connor had stayed with the MMM this season, under Current Player Points Rules he would be considered Category C (10 Points) with maximum Local Discount of 4 points for (assumed) 4 previous seasons with MMM Colts/Grade combined with playing for a local Junior Club = 6 points.

    As he has "crossed the border", unless he has some history with a Rats Junior Club, or a brother or Father who has played with the Rats (5 point discount for his first season at Rats), he is worth 10 points to them. If he hypothetically goes to Gordon in 2016, he would still be a Category C player and be worth 9 Player Points to them as a 1 year "Experience" discount would apply to him.
  7. Blind Freddy Frank Row (1)

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    I don't necessarily agree with what is by any measure a complex filter against which it must be very difficult and onerous to rate players with any confidence, but can make a couple observations:

    What of a test player for a country ranked below 20 (as at 1 Jan 2015)?

    Should the "holds a current Super Rugby contract" and "holding an EPS, WTG or similar contract" also be (as at 1 Jan 2015)? If they gain or lose such a contract during the season does their point rating change accordingly?


    Should not a "player who has played for another International Union at Under 20 age" be time-bound as per Australian U20 ie in 2013 or 2014?

    Should a "player who is in the train on squad for NSW for the current years National U20 Championships" be "as at 1 Jan 2015" or "selected in" rather than "in" to cater for players being added to or dropped from the squad during the season?
  8. Quick Hands David Wilson (68)

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    He has alway been a Marlin. (until this year at least):)
  9. I like to watch Simon Poidevin (60)

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    Ok,obviously he was a poor example because of his other achievements.

    My question was basically if player A plays 9 colts 1's games this year and moves clubs,does he accrue more points than player B,who played an entire season in 1st grade(debut year),who also moved clubs?
  10. Hugh Jarse Rocky Elsom (76)

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    ^^^
    Yeah fair call. Perhaps there should be another line in the revised Category E to discourage poaching 1st Grade players, but leaving the door open for a player changing clubs to get 1st Grade game time when they are stuck in Second Grade, behind a road block, at their previous club.

    5. A player who played (ie taken the field) in 9 or more 1st Grade games at a different NSW Premiership Club in 2014.

    While there aren't all that many, I am wondering if the "Foreigner Ring In" points (4) are adequate (revised Category F1).
    1. A player who is not an Australian Citizen, AND was not a resident in Australia during both 2013 AND 2014.

    This seems a little harsh for some Colts players out here on a Gap Year looking for a game of footy, and is perhaps not harsh enough if the bloke has been recruited in from a top Club side in Argentina, NZ, Sefrika, or the UK to play Grade footy. Perhaps this should remain at 4 points for Colts players and be 6 points for Grade players.
  11. Hugh Jarse Rocky Elsom (76)

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    .. And to remove any doubt about whether a player has been selected for a certain Representative team (Schoolboys, U20, Foreign U20, International Union, Aviva, French Top 14, etc) or not, perhaps this data could be centrally maintained in the Rugby Link Database by an ARU unpaid intern.

    Data collection on Foreign players or players returning from foreign stints can be captured as part of the International Transfer and clearance process.

    Take any decision making and interpretation out of the clubs hands. The player points value can be automatically generated by data "in the system".

    I know "Garbage in - Garbage out", but at least this way there is a vested interest in ensuring that the data in the system is accurate.
  12. AussieDominance Trevor Allan (34)

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    I don't get the issue shouldn't we be encouraging the Shute Shield clubs to try and make the competition as strong as possible. It needs to be looked at in regards to the points given to overseas players. Players from other states/rural areas of Australia should be encouraged to join the Sydney competition.

    The thing that should be actively researched and considered is

    A) Junior points
    B) Players changing/joining clubs in the higher grades/colts
  13. Hugh Jarse Rocky Elsom (76)

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    Some slight changes for the 2016 Player Points Calculations which are outlined below:


    The Player Points calculation is:
    A - 20 points
    A player who has played a 15 a side test for a Tier 1 international Union

    B - 16 points
    A player who has at least five Super rugby or Heineken Cup caps or;
    Has played 15 a side for a tier two Pacific Island international Union (e.g. Fiji, Samoa, Tonga)

    C - 10 points
    A player who holds a current Super Rugby or Australian 7s contract or;
    A player who has played (i.e. taken the field):
    in 50 or more 1st grade games in NSW Premiership competition (in total across any clubs) or
    more than 50% of the 1st Grade games at a different Premiership Club in 2015 or;
    Australian age representative (U20) in 2014 or 2015
    or;
    A player who has at least five SANZAR Union 1st division provincial championship (e.g. ITM Cup or Currie Cup) caps from the 2014 or 2015 season
    or;
    Aviva (formerly Guinness) Premiership, RaboDirectPro12 (formerly Magners League), French top 14, Amlin Challenge (formerly European Challenge) Cup or LV (formerly Anglo Welsh) Cup in 2014 or 2015.

    D - 6 points
    Australian schoolboy representative in 2014 and or 2015;
    A player who has played;
    between 35 and 49 1st grade games in the Premiership competition (in total across any Clubs) or;
    more than 50% of the 1st grade Colts games at a different Premiership Club in 2014

    E - 4 points
    A player who is not an Australian Citizen, AND was not a resident in Australia during both 2014 AND 2015
    OR
    a player who has played Division 1 at the Australian Schoolboys championships in 2015

    F - 2 points
    All other players


    Discounts available
    Family
    Up to 5 points for new players to the club (in their first year only) for siblings of existing players that played the previous season with the club or sons of past players.

    Local
    One point per year discount (up to a maximum of four points) for players who have previously played with the club or previously played with a local junior club between U10 - Open

    Long Service
    50% discount for eight years or more service with the club for Category A, B, C or D
    one years service is deemed to be 8 games (or rep games)

    Experience
    Discount for Category A, B or C players (up to a maximum of five points) of one point per year each year they have been out of international union or Super competition representation


    Guidelines
    1. The points system applies to 1st & 2nd grade, and 1st & 2nd grade colts.
    1st Grade Cap = 100 points
    2nd Grade Cap = 60 points
    1st Grade Colts = 40 points
    2nd Grade Colts = 35 points

    2. Cap applies to all players taking the field in each grade.

    3. Players are categorised at the highest level at which they have played.

    4. Points are not cumulative throughout a season – each player is only indexed at one level as of 1st January.

    5. Discounts are not cumulative throughout a season. Each player is only indexed at one level as of 1 January. – only one type of discount may apply to a player. Where a player may be eligible for different types of discounts, Clubs should apply the highest discount available to the player.

    6. Discounts cannot index players below 50% of their base player points.

    7. Australian Schoolboy representative players, including Australia ‘A” (current or former) will not be eligible for 3rd Grade Colts.

    8. For the purposes of long service discount a minimum of eight rounds must be played to constitute a season. NB Representative seasons will count towards long service discounts.

    9. Tier 1 International Unions: Argentina, Australia, England, France, Ireland, Italy, New Zealand, Scotland, South Africa, Wales

    10. Category A and B players are only eligible to play 1st and 2nd Grade except Players who are not currently contracted and did not perform any International and or Super duties in the preceding season, are eligible for any grade and/or Colts (subject to Colts eligibility).

    11. Players with current Super Rugby contracts can only play 1st Grade.

    Sanctions
    Exceeding the Cap in one Competition Round
    Penalty will be the loss of 5 competition points and respective club championship points for each and every grade the breach occurred in irrespective of the actual result of the game.

    Incorrect or misleading information on the Declaration
    The Club and or Player will be referred to the CEO and may be asked to appear before Judiciary.

    Exploiting the Rules (whatever that means)
    Clubs found guilty of exploiting the (player points) rules may have competition points deducted and or suffer further penalty as determined by the board. In the Finals Series, the penalty shall be automatic forfeiture of the match or matches in which the breach occurs.

    Does Confusion Reign Supreme or did they just forget to amend these clauses in the rules in their evangelical haste to adopt the Paddy Ryan* Clause to close the fresh reserves loophole?
    "Rule 7.6 In the event that a game is forfeited in a grade immediately preceding a grade that is governed by the player points system, all reserves of the non offending team will be regarded as non fresh reserves and will their player points will not contribute to the team's points total for the game"
    That is a direct quote including the "will their player points will not" clause.

    "Rule 7.6.1 In the event of wet weather causing a grade immediately preceding a grade that is governed by the player points system to be postponed, all reserves will be regarded as non fresh reserves and their player points will not contribute to the team's points total for the game"

    These rules seem to contradict Rule 7.3.2 that states that the points cap applies to all players taking the field. (Previously this stated that the Cap only applied to starting players and fresh reserves in each grade).




    * There have been plenty of instances from a number of clubs (not just the Usual Suspect) over the years where high Player Points players have been run on in 2nd grade for a brief cameo appearance so they can be considered to be Not a Fresh Reserve (and thus be a 0 point player). Said Not Fresh Reserve is then tactically substituted for Nigel Nobody (low point player used as a run on player to stay under the Points Cap) effectively allowing a team to have more points on the field for most of the game than the Points Cap would otherwise allow. Some will claim that the most recent example of this was in the 2015 Finals series where The Corporation played Paddy Ryan in a 2nd Grade Finals match for a short period, and then brought him on in the following First Grade Match off the bench without his player points counting against the team: thus the Parry Ryan Clause.
  14. Inside Shoulder Nathan Sharpe (72)

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    Im not following.
    Are you saying there should be no limit on points per club?
  15. the coach Dick Tooth (41)

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    Seems to me that the main impact of the PP system has been to place restrictions on team selections, not which players go to a club. A case of shutting the gate after the horse has bolted :confused:

    Which is why I believe (as others have suggested in the past) there should be a cap on a club's total roster, not just individual teams.
    Stands and Inside Shoulder like this.
  16. Hugh Jarse Rocky Elsom (76)

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    ^^^I like that concept but struggle to see how it would work in effect.

    The lower grades at many clubs have lots of "social" players who only play a couple of games either because they get injured, just help out for a game or two, lose interest, CBF doing the full season due to other priorities in their life, etc.

    We already have issues with uncontested scrums in lower grades due to insufficient trained and competent Pot Plants. Limiting numbers to try to stay under a club player points cap would only see this happening more often.

    Would clubs be prepared to sacrifice 3rd and 4th grade games to maximise Player Points in the 1's and 2's?

    Are we heading towards a 1sts, Reserves, and Premier Colts only competition with the 3's and 4's, and lower Colts grades playing Suburban rugby?
  17. I like to watch Simon Poidevin (60)

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    ^^^^^^simple.
    You limit clubs to x number of differing categories of players.
    So many 15 point players,10 point players etc.
    Unlimited on lower grade guys, with zero scrapbooks
    Stands likes this.
  18. sidelineview Desmond Connor (43)

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    So has the Player Points System been clarified for the 2017 season as yet?
  19. Quick Hands David Wilson (68)

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    ^^^Has it ever been clear?:)

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