The Relationship Between the Schools, the Clubs, the Unions and the ARU

[Hugh Jarse]

We are not too far away from our annual demonstration of the relationship between the Schools, Clubs and the ARU.

Yes folks, the U16 representative season is almost upon us.
Schools trials start with the ISA U16 trials on 14 May. CHS are preparing for a Coffs Harbour tournament. Country Juniors held trials last weekend. CAS competition started this weekend.
Sydney Juniors are in round 3 of their competition and Districts are assembling their squads for the Long weeekend state championships.

It looks like Juniors, Schools and Country may be at National U16 championships again.

Last year, NSW Schools seemed to get the first pick of many City players, with a fair stack of kids representing Sydney Juniors without playing in any Sydney Juniors competition. If history repeats, this year Juniors will be getting first choice of the available players because it is their turn. Eligibility criteria will be amended as necessary to ensure they get who they want.

Last year ARU wanted to have NSW I, and NSW II teams only (with possibly a combined states team), but apparently NSW JRU, ably assisted by SJRU, allegedly went all sooky and complained to all and sundry at all levels. Long story short, NSW "affliliates" got their way and 3 teams were entered from NSW in the National Championship.

Will ARU get their way this year? Will the Juniors go all sooky? Who will win the Masonic handshaking contest at the selection draft?

Should Under 16 footy be that complex?

Who made it such a problem?

 

[Man on the hill]

Hugh J - thanks for bring us back onto topic!

 

[Inside Shoulder]

We are not too far away from our annual demonstration of the relationship between the Schools, Clubs and the ARU.

Hugh J - thanks for bring us back onto topic!

That would be fine - except who dragged the ARU into this?
Is that a reference to the promo flags they place strategically around Riverview for the U16's tournie?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Ummm - the title of this thread is the relationship between Schools, clubs, union and the ARU.

The title drags ARU into it.

The National U16 tournament is a demonstration of interaction between Schools, clubs/unions and the ARU.

Regarding ARU committment to the U16 tournament. My snouts tell me that they commit about $100k to run the entire tournament. Cost of accommodation, meals, airfares, transfers, staff costs, referees, tournament PR, admin, coaching to teams, medical costs, advisors to teams and......

My snouts tell me that ARU have been working very hard for several years to reduce NSW participation in U16's to two teams similar to Queensland.

Dragging ARU into this is totally relevant.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Ummm - the title of this thread is the relationship between Schools, clubs, union and the ARU.

The title drags ARU into it.

The National U16 tournament is a demonstration of interaction between Schools, clubs/unions and the ARU.

Regarding ARU committment to the U16 tournament. My snouts tell me that they commit about $100k to run the entire tournament. Cost of accommodation, meals, airfares, transfers, staff costs, referees, tournament PR, admin, coaching to teams, medical costs, advisors to teams and..

My snouts tell me that ARU have been working very hard for several years to reduce NSW participation in U16's to two teams similar to Queensland.

Dragging ARU into this is totally relevant.

'twas a joke referring to their general lack of involvement in development


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Hugh Jarse]

From U16 on ARU get more and more involved in development, and take more and more control (if not total) of "the pathway".

There is valid criticism that apart from ensuring that Under 6 and U7 do not tackle, and woe betide any club that allows such, ARU have NO involvement in the development of the game or players at the absolute base of the pyramid - 5 to 15 year olds.

The messiest bit is the high school years, early high school in particular - U13-U16.

Look at the drop off in participant numbers in these years. Once lost to a sport, it is nearly impossible to get a player back. They find other interests, and move on.

 

[USARugger]

There is no such requirement - there is definitely encouragement.
I would say that its less demanding than the way the NFL teams draft out of college - some enormous percentage of draftees complete a bachelors degree - do they not?
Of course, if you believe one of the theories behind "Money Ball" (the book) watching a kid in college is a much better means of determining his fitness for pro sport than how he went in high school.

I don't know what percentage of draftees hold a degree. Considering college football is a prerequisite here for the NFL you would hope that most of the guys graduate with a degree. The content of those degrees doesn't always support the thought that these young men are well educated. Obviously it's easier to predict future success in college, the boys are closer to having the body they will play with in their professional career and are playing against better competition in a more structured program.

 

[USARugger]

Cloistering would imply their is some sort of funding forthcoming from the ARU for the private schools. When you pay your own way in life regardless of what it is you don't have to answer to anyone. An indisputable fact of life.

That's not to say the ARU should not flex it's muscle a little around representative selection to achieve more co-operation around availability and development squad participation from private schools. Your either in or your players aren't considered.

If a few schools are producing the majority of the elite players that's not their fault, but the ARU's failure. Whether they have the motivation to change is another thing, because as mention these players are costing them nothing to develop.

Sorry, I was way too abstract in the way I meant 'cloistering', as in the lack of funding for the local programs creates a developmental vacuum giving the schools a disproportionate amount of sway with the ARU. Not to say they are actively cloistering them, just that there actions (or lack thereof) lead to it. Poor form from me on that one.

To your second point, do you think that would work? You seem to be familiar with the rugby power-house private institutions so I'd really actually love to hear you extrapolate on this idea.

Do you think it would be at all possible to convince the schools to restructure their competitions so they were actually competitive and not dominated by a handful of schools every year? You do become the best by playing the best, after all.

100% agree it is a failure on behalf of the ARU.

Man on the hill

I haven't forgotten about this thread, I swear! I just have to do a lot more research and there is far more to be considered here than in a typical thread. Also was planning on getting to this stuff today but thanks to the wonders of the American medical system a pretty routine Orthopedics appointment turned into 7 hours in the Hospital.

Going to be reading through the thread from 5/2 to the current state tomorrow. Have a bunch of crap to take care of tonight.

THAT SAID, STOP FUCKING POSTING ABOUT RUPA - IT HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD. MY COMMENT ABOUT MANDATORY EDUCATIONAL REQUIREMENTS IS MERELY A REFLECTION OF MY OWN PERSONAL BELIEF THAT EDUCATION IS ALWAYS BENEFICIAL TO BOTH THE INDIVIDUAL AND SOCIETY AS A WHOLE. IT WAS A SMALL QUIP, NOT A JUMPING OFF POINT FOR YOU TO DERAIL THIS THREAD. THANK YOU.

 

[USARugger]

This had my eyebrows raised today. I like the idea but it feels like a bandage and not a solution. What good is addressing the middle of the pyramid if the bottom is crumbling? Any thoughts?

 

[Kenny Powers]

USARugger, the ARU need to use the carrot approach to get the GPS schools more on board as far co-operation with development program's and representative teams. It may not seem like a big deal, but it will be a watershed day because both the CEO and Chairman are GPS Old Boys.

The other carrot which could be also be used and I would appreciate your comments is to have 'State Champions' like they do in US for American Football. If the ARU supported this and promoted it I could see a lot prestige associated with it and schools wanting to participate in it.

This does require the ARU to tell a number of other self serving rugby bodies to get on board or get out of the way and this too will be a watershed day if it ever happens.

The GPS competition has a lot of tradition and the remaining teams have high quality competitive games. Their competition should remain (maybe just 1 round) and then be involved in a wider competition for 'State Champions'.

 

[Pfitzy]

This had my eyebrows raised today. I like the idea but it feels like a bandage and not a solution. What good is addressing the middle of the pyramid if the bottom is crumbling? Any thoughts?

I'd prefer the academy guys to play a game of Tens rather than fuck with the core Laws.

 

[Man on the hill]

USARugger, the ARU need to use the carrot approach to get the GPS schools more on board as far co-operation with development program's and representative teams. It may not seem like a big deal, but it will be a watershed day because both the CEO and Chairman are GPS Old Boys.

The other carrot which could be also be used and I would appreciate your comments is to have 'State Champions' like they do in US for American Football. If the ARU supported this and promoted it I could see a lot prestige associated with it and schools wanting to participate in it.

No Kenny - the best carrot and stick approach s a bit of rough loving where you use the stick to jam the carrot further up their ...

 

[Hugh Jarse]

It looks like the cash flow crisis at ARU is causing some interesting things to happen.

ASRU. Australian Schools RU has been forced to go cap in hand to players families and corporates with a crowd funding proposal based around associate memberships:
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/co...-rugby-union-associate-membership-2015.15043/

Clubs (Colts). All will soon be revealed about what is happening with the 2015 cohort of 17 (turning 18) year olds. Sydney JRU Open age footy has been withering, with most of the talented 17 year olds not attending a CAS, ISA or AAGPS School electing to play in SRU Colts competition rather then SJRU open competition. Next Season, SRU Colts intend running an Under 18 competition (in addition to their three regular grades of Colts footy). It appears that only 8 of the clubs (out of 12) will be participating in this competition.
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/community/threads/sydney-colts-2015.14688/page-5
I would imagine that the really talented 17 year olds from the 2015 U18 cohort will be fancying their chances of playing in Colts 1, or Colts 2 against stiffer competition, as they have done for many years, rather than playing in what will be effectively a Colts 4 competition (with lots of byes).

Clubs (SJRU). At the moment the SJRU position on the SRU Colts U18 competition proposal is unknown. Hopefully they will embrace it and actively encourage their members to participate in it, rather that try to keep those players in their Opens competition. There just aren't enough players going around to have it both ways.

Junior Gold Cup. The cost of participation in the "new pathway", the Junior Gold Cup (JGC) at U17 and U15 seems to be increasing, and there doesn't seem to be the flow on of numbers from this programme into village club footy. Anecdotally some of the rock stars from the Schools programme/pathway seem to have decided not to participate in JGC this summer. That may be a good thing as it will allow more of those not attending "big rugby schools" to receive the extra development and exposure that the JGC offers.

Private Schools. The Sydney private school rolls seem to be reasonably full with no evidence of parental revolt at the ever increasing fees. AAGPS fees are in the vicinity of $28-30k, with a $4k non-refundable deposit just for the privilege to get your name on the roll. ISA and CAS fees are not too far south of these. There is clearly demand there, although a number of posters have pointed out that some of the "Big Rugby Schools" now have more Soccer teams than Rugby teams, and AFL has been doing its utmost to storm the sandstone ramparts and get some traction for their sport in AAGPS, ISA and CAS.

Development Funding from ARU. ARU have withdrawn $28k grants to Shute Shield clubs that some will claim was in part to pay for the employment of administrators and or development officers in the district to run programmes in state primary and high schools, and assist Junior Village Clubs recruit and retain players. It is said that in Western Sydney, (pop approx 2 million) Rugby has 2 Development Officers compared to 20 from AFL, and it is anyone's guess how many Loig and Soccer have.

Increased Participation Levy from ARU. ARU appear to have unilaterally increased the tax on playing rugby from the $200 per team levy imposed for 2014 to a graduated fee covering both insurance and participation that must be payed up front, and on an individual basis. Again this appears to have been imposed with little consultation with the folk who will be paying the increased tax, and there is only weasel words describing the actual benefits that will be delivered to the payees that they aren't already receiving.


TL;DR - So coming back to the thread topic, I'd say that the relationships between the clubs, the schools, the unions and the ARU for 2015 would be on par to the multidimensional relationships existing between a recently divorced couple and their kids, and harmonious would not be used to describe any of the relationships.

We live in interesting times.

 

[BraveandGame]

. The reason why so many Wallabies have come out of the private school system is not "fucking embarrassing" but because these member schools have been committed to investing time and money in junior rugby for up to 120 years (in the case of GPS). Imagine where rugby would be in this country if that commitment had instead been to rugby league, soccer or AFL?? The heart of the problem has been the lack of investment over many decades by the ARU and State Unions in developing the game at all levels and more money should have been invested in developing the game in the public schools system and at junior club level.

Spot on and well said the BS regarding Schools damaging rugby in Australia is wonderful, without the private schools support over the last 100 years there would be no Rugby in Australia.

The sad fact is the Blazer wearers involved particularly in NSW and QLD rugby have never adapted to the professional era and they desperately need to follow the AFL and lesser extent RL model of nurturing Junior Rugby (u6-u13) across the entire nation rather than exploiting them.

 

[sarcophilus]

Sacrophilus I would agree with your argument if it lead Australia to success or even moderate success against international competition on the world stage or even small wins consistently against Tier 1 nations at Schoolboy level but your argument falls flat on its face there as its quite obvious that the pinnacle of schoolboy rugby continues to fail against its competition internationally.

Certainly sounds like your are in support of the status quo that has developed the losing tradition the Australian schools system has become and will continue to advocate for an elitist system of a select few that separates itself from the majority of rugby players at an age group level.

Let me be clear, my argument is not for either school or club but for one competition for age groups at a local level. My reasons for this have been clearly stated and articulated and are results based with evidence going back 20 years.

Your argument that because of diversity and competition that we need two system is ridiculous in a day in age where Australian borders are open and as a country we openly court migrants from all countries to come here, including rugby players. It is so backward and based in the 19th century when class structures were prevalent in society and people treated those with lesser with disdain and disrespect as lesser and not equal like the egalitarian society we are today.

Australian is now a multicultural multiracial multiethnic society where all people are welcome and are treated equally. You want a two system because of this? Come on? Really? There are countries in this world who have fought against this type of elitist ideology. Your reasoning is exactly why we need one competition for both schools and clubs at age group level and clearly bolsters my argument for change.

Australian rugby is now in 2015 not 1915.the world and rugby has moved on so has accepted ideology. Would be good if thinking in some rugby circles in Australia could catch up.

 

[sarcophilus]

copied to a thread existing and relevant to this discussion for the comfort of others.
in response to the above assertions

"Certainly sounds like your are in support of the status quo that has developed the losing tradition the Australian schools system has become and will continue to advocate for an elitist system of a select few that separates itself from the majority of rugby players at an age group level."

I have been here a little while and old posts will show I have no love of the Public School Elitists or their wannabe mimics. They are free to associate with whom ever they want. As a collective the schooling associations probably do make up the majority of Rugby players in Australia

meritocracy works only when there is a level playing field or if all the ants have the same thought at the same time. There is no level playing field .... only conservatives believe there is. we are herding cats not farming ants.

The school associations do not need rugby they choose rugby and the associated culture. Tradition supports this but choice is challenging this. The inducement required to come under the one umbrella is likely to be more than Rugby can afford but not likely the alternatives.

outside of those systems Rugby is more a novelty sport than the homogenous state that would support your single plane system. The subtleties, game plans and structures are more difficult to coach than five-kick, force-'em-backs or dive ball. Without support from the church there will be no disciples or missionaries to sell Heaven's game to the great unwashed.

 

[Hugie]

When I last looked the ARU has $600,000- budgeted for Schoolboys. Whilst I think that this is of itself a worthwhile thing to do, Is it the very best way to spend this money? I think not. I would like to see this money swung over to promoting rugby in non traditional rugby schools, for both boys and girls. With the objective of getting more boys and girls playing rugby (15s and 7s) in the local club comps. Some of this money would then flow back to the ARU via the levy. This could be done in concert with the new Rugby development officers i.e. a resource for them to bid for with measurable recruitment target.
CHS, CCC, most of ISA etc should follow NSW country schools and AICES out of the schools program and use the JG program as their pathway. Making the schools program a Private Schools program. Perhaps they could call it the Greater Australian Privates schools.
The JGP should then select an U18s squad/team from the U17s and an U16s from the previous years U15s to play GAPs in the big annual game. I think you'd get a big crowd to these games, maybe a nice little earner to cover some of the JGP costs.

This would separate the schools program from the club program and deals with the ethical problem of struggling clubs paying for the promoting of wealthy private schools (who don't contribute to the ARU, and why should they, but likewise why do rugby clubs have to contribute to the promotion of wealth private schools).