Mortlock was the same
The Wallabies Thread
- Thread starter KOB1987
- Start date
Mortlock was the same
neilc
Bob Loudon (25)
Unlike Tevita Kuridrani, incumbent Wallaby centre....
However, I agree that Perese is a winger and should be allowed to develop there. All centres should be good at passing and distribution, really baffles me that someone can get to be a test centre without having developed that but seems to have been a trend in Australian rugby - AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) was similar - strong runner and defender but not a passer.
How much of this was based on the first half of his career and people never got over it? I thought his distribution skills were pretty solid in his last few years. I think a big aspect of his play was that he didn't pass to a player in a worse position than him.
It's similar to people saying TPN is a terrible lineout thrower or that Ma'a Nonu was a crash ball 12 for the All Blacks.
Fans seem very prone to forming opinions about players early in their career and then never changing that opinion.
Perese definitely has work to do on his passing game. There were times in that JWC when he completely missed the player outside him whilst trying to pass a medium length pass on the run under no real pressure. I think it will come together with time but I agree with TOCC that at this point his position at this level is on the wing.
Zero_Cool
Arch Winning (36)
Jesus what did poor Rodda do to have Philip, Carter and Simmons ahead of him?!
Simmons was dumped by the Reds because Rodda and Tui are vastly superior. Rodda has been a beast for the Reds giving you that Hanigan-esqu work ethic but actually being effective. His lineout work has been superb he and Coleman are probably the best lineout locks in Australia. Unlike Simmons scrums in front of Rodda go forward, I am not sure I've seen Simmons push in a scrum in his life, very much not in the last few years.
Also regarding halfback I'm almost expecting Cheika to still pick Phipps despite him not having any excuse this year as to not starting for the Waratahs... again.
Those that have had Tupou fall out of the 23 (some had him boardline starting) how much of that is based on his scrummaging last against the Stormers? Because I'm quite sure that won't happen again. But even if he scrums like a little girl I think he's still in the 23.
At 10 I would be picking Lance and I really don't like Lance! But it would really be Beale playing 10 and Lance playing 12. Foley hasn't been playing particularly well and while Lance often kills the attack you'd really have Beale doing much of your playmaking with SK or TK playing in the centers to get crunched when Lance throws a shit pass.
Finally, Folau has got to play at 15, just look at his still set and the skill set of wingers and explain to me how / why he should be playing 15!
Other notes, Higgers should be considered for 6/7/8. I don't think you can select both Pocock and Hooper, and to my mind Pocock has shown he's going to be superior to Hooper. I feel like the ruck law changes actually make Pocock better compared to everyone else, because it's gotten much harder to get those steals but Pocock has only gotten a little worse at them. Hooper's speed coming off the bench is probably going to be more valuable too.
What I think Cheika's pick will be.
Simmons was dumped by the Reds because Rodda and Tui are vastly superior. Rodda has been a beast for the Reds giving you that Hanigan-esqu work ethic but actually being effective. His lineout work has been superb he and Coleman are probably the best lineout locks in Australia. Unlike Simmons scrums in front of Rodda go forward, I am not sure I've seen Simmons push in a scrum in his life, very much not in the last few years.
Also regarding halfback I'm almost expecting Cheika to still pick Phipps despite him not having any excuse this year as to not starting for the Waratahs... again.
Those that have had Tupou fall out of the 23 (some had him boardline starting) how much of that is based on his scrummaging last against the Stormers? Because I'm quite sure that won't happen again. But even if he scrums like a little girl I think he's still in the 23.
At 10 I would be picking Lance and I really don't like Lance! But it would really be Beale playing 10 and Lance playing 12. Foley hasn't been playing particularly well and while Lance often kills the attack you'd really have Beale doing much of your playmaking with SK or TK playing in the centers to get crunched when Lance throws a shit pass.
Finally, Folau has got to play at 15, just look at his still set and the skill set of wingers and explain to me how / why he should be playing 15!
Other notes, Higgers should be considered for 6/7/8. I don't think you can select both Pocock and Hooper, and to my mind Pocock has shown he's going to be superior to Hooper. I feel like the ruck law changes actually make Pocock better compared to everyone else, because it's gotten much harder to get those steals but Pocock has only gotten a little worse at them. Hooper's speed coming off the bench is probably going to be more valuable too.
What I think Cheika's pick will be.
Sio / TPN / Kepu
Colman / Simmons
Hanigan / Pocock / Hooper
Geina / Foley
Koroibete / Beale / Kuridrani / Folau
DHP
Front rowers who have packed with him would say otherwise, and have. I'm going to go with them, I reckon.
^^^^
I'm not necessarily saying Simmons should be picked. But the main attributes stated by Wallaby and other coaches with respect to him in the past have been around his set piece work. And I recall him being praised by some of the front rowers as well, particularly in the scrum.
Of course, you have to look at their all-round game. If someone else is as, or nearly as, good as him in set piece but much better elsewhere, then it's an easy call. I was a just trying to bring some accuracy into the discussion.
We're lucky to have a pretty solid cohort of locks coming along - Coleman, 2 Arnolds, Philip, Enever, Rodda, Tui, Simmons for starters, with others too.
I'm not necessarily saying Simmons should be picked. But the main attributes stated by Wallaby and other coaches with respect to him in the past have been around his set piece work. And I recall him being praised by some of the front rowers as well, particularly in the scrum.
Of course, you have to look at their all-round game. If someone else is as, or nearly as, good as him in set piece but much better elsewhere, then it's an easy call. I was a just trying to bring some accuracy into the discussion.
We're lucky to have a pretty solid cohort of locks coming along - Coleman, 2 Arnolds, Philip, Enever, Rodda, Tui, Simmons for starters, with others too.
The reason I included Simmons in my matchday 23 as one of the three locks was his experience. I think there is a good chance we'll have Coleman, one of the inexperienced but talented up and comers (I currently have Philip shading Rodda here) and then an experienced player in Simmons.
He is putting together some pretty good rugby at the moment and his set piece work is very good.
Rodda and Philip might both have too good form to be ignored and both make the 23 but I have my doubts that both will.
He is putting together some pretty good rugby at the moment and his set piece work is very good.
Rodda and Philip might both have too good form to be ignored and both make the 23 but I have my doubts that both will.
Zero_Cool
Arch Winning (36)
I don't think Simmons has been any good, he's made 6 tackles a game his last few games, nothing of note in terms of carries and his lineout work has been adequate but nothing amazing. Douglas has been making between 7 and 10 tackles a game the last few games, has been much more physical than Simmons around the ruck. Lineout has been again adequate but nothing amazing. Neither of them are ever doing anything in attack they couldn't bend the line if they tried but if your criteria is an experienced lock and your picking a light weight back row Douglas is going to give you more grunt.
But I don't think we should be picking any of the 'experienced' locks we have right now because they aren't outright better than the younger guys we have at the moment. Honestly, if he finds some form Tui could be a nice fit with our Po/oper back row given the ball running and tackling he can give but we'll know more in the next few weeks.
Just in my opinion nether Simmons nor Douglass should be in the side, maybe -- maybe on the bench by they wouldn't be in my squad.
Also @Cyclopath maybe it's professional courtesy... Maybe he pushes as hard as he can, but I see scrums before and after Simmons and they hold steady when he's not there and are on roller skates when he is. Maybe he pushes really hard but in a poor rhythm or in a funny way, I don't know what it is but so many scrums for the Reds last year were going backwards then you'd pull Simmons and they are right, then you bring him back and they are going backwards again.
I do know he use to be considered one of the best but recently I'm not so sure, or maybe 'they' were wrong.
dru
Tim Horan (67)
I thought Simmons looked the part in his last start. A couple of wonky jumps where he isn't guiltless, but were mostly the lifters. Had impact in the ruck and made sure he fronted up there. He'll be in the 23 I think.
Rebels3
Jim Lenehan (48)
Let’s take away our 1 week memory spans. Simmons has been rather ordinary all year. He was crap against the Stormers before getting injured, missed 2 matches on tour with injury, then on return managed to be the only Tah that looked terrible against Rebels team that was cooked, finally on the weekend he was fairly good without been great. So that’s 2 sub par games and one above par match in 3. Now I’m not ruling him out but you’d think he’s been great all year from some comments. It’s like someone mentioned Hodge had been out of form earlier????? He didn’t play amazing on Friday but wasn’t the issue with the Rebels, apart from that got a double only 3/4 rounds ago, defensively against the Sharks was a monster, played a solid games against the Sunwolves, etc. only bad game was the second half of the Tahs. Reminds me of people calling for Phipps over Genia last year due to 1 bad half against Scotland.
Rodda has been immense, a comfortable pick of form, potential and fitness count for anything
Rodda has been immense, a comfortable pick of form, potential and fitness count for anything
jimmydubs
Dave Cowper (27)
Why oh why are we accepting the pooper as the default option?
Yes Pocock and hooper are very different players - but neither are threats to bend the line close, capable at the back of the scrum, occasional lineout options or very 8 like at all.
I’d go with Pocock-timu at 7-8. Hoops on bench. And a Tui, rodda or similar at 6.
If we end up with hanigan-hooper-Pocock I’m going to need to start drinking again.
Partly in jest: I’m glad to see the level of support for Simmons in gold south of the tweed has increased this year
Yes Pocock and hooper are very different players - but neither are threats to bend the line close, capable at the back of the scrum, occasional lineout options or very 8 like at all.
I’d go with Pocock-timu at 7-8. Hoops on bench. And a Tui, rodda or similar at 6.
If we end up with hanigan-hooper-Pocock I’m going to need to start drinking again.
Partly in jest: I’m glad to see the level of support for Simmons in gold south of the tweed has increased this year
Ha ha. In my defence, I have talked favourably (enough) about him before. I'd say qualified - I was just defending his set piece work. I certainly don't think he's one of the better performing locks overall this year to date. But, experience counts. Expect we will have better overall options, but as Braveheart says, he'll probably be in a wider squad at least.
Zero_Cool
Arch Winning (36)
I wouldn't play Rodda at 6, Tui is a viable option but will be a risk (because the Reds have back rowers for
I will stick up for Hanigan where it's due, he's looked much improved this year more Fiction Flanders than okilly-dokilly Flanders. I do think he's still a while off being a legit Wallaby starter and would sooner see the either of the younger (and same heighted) Angus Scott-Young or Liam Wright (Wright might be too much like playing ANOTHER Pocock -- but he can lineout). Note I'm not calling for either of them, and would sooner see Higgers over any of the three but apparently we are looking to get young (despite looking to get young nowhere else); maybe McCaffery.
But my money is on Korczyck or Wells if we are picking Timu and Pocock -- Cheika isn't going to pick Korczyk but he's been lighting up the numbers. Korczyk is averaging 5.5 run meters off an average of slightly over 3 runs a game, 12 tackles a game (third highest after Hooper @ 13 and Wells @ 12.2).
Meanwhile Wells is averaging 12.2 tackles, 5.25 run meters per run off 8 runs. Wells is a little bit of a liability with more turnovers & penalties but his big detraction is that he's not a first rate lineout option like Korczyk.
But Cheika will select Hangian or maybe Wells if he feels like he's going to get too much criticism in selecting Hanigan after last year.
Simmons rightfully cops a lot of crap about his game but he can never be accused of being a shit scrummager. The only second rower in the country able to push him out of the tight head lock spot has been Coleman. Have a look at the rest of the Tahs pack before you blame him.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
In support of what Cyclo has said about Simmons set piece work, I was a very big critic of his selection for the Wallabies, but a mate who has significant connections with current players told me that he is very highly regarded for the set piece with current players. I took that on board and had to reassess what I was seeing. As with most players he really needs to have a balancing lock to make up for his short comings in loose play. IMHO he is the best signing the Tahs have made in a few years because he has addressed the biggest fundamental weakness in the Tahs pack since 2014.
T
TOCC
Guest
Sorry to break up the Simmons love-in, but for the amount of experience Simmons has he doesn’t covert that into consistent quality rugby. He has always been selected first because of his set piece and that is his clear strength, it’s his other work which is the issue. Around the ground his work rate is typically quite high, but his accuracy at the ruck is poor, his ability to gets cross the gain line is non-existent and whilst he may make a large number of tackles he rarely makes a dominant tackle.
For many years he was the most technically proficient set piece lock in the country, but with guys like Coleman and Rodda running their lineouts at their respective teams and also playing parts in dominant scrums, i really struggle to see what Simmons value adds anymore.
Has he got worse? No, rather we’ve got a new wave of locks coming through who are better.
For many years he was the most technically proficient set piece lock in the country, but with guys like Coleman and Rodda running their lineouts at their respective teams and also playing parts in dominant scrums, i really struggle to see what Simmons value adds anymore.
Has he got worse? No, rather we’ve got a new wave of locks coming through who are better.
Er, everyone was mostly just talking about his set piece. I don't think it constitutes a dismissive "love-in" crack.
- Me
- Gnostic
- Sully.