The Wallabies Thread

[Gnostic]

According to the commentators and some regular posters the performance of the Wallabies is not a coaching issue. I would point out the following in rebuttal:-​

1) Poor core skill execution. How many poor passes, woeful running lines (Kurtley Beale running 25 metres across field at least 5 times perhaps one of the most over rated players ever in the Wallabies IMO), Coleman standing on the side of the maul - offside and doing Sweet FA. Folau kicking worse than a 10 year old - surprise, surprise when has he improved as a professional in this aspect of the game.​

2) Chieka's reign has set many failure records - including some that Robbie Deans' teams managed that we never would have reasonably expected to get bettered. But no, we have now seen the achievement of the lowest ranking ever, conceded home series defeats to Ireland, England, record defeats to Scotland and now home to Argentina. On the last there is no doubt Argentina played well, but the Wallabies had so many chances and point 1 told the story.​

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If we approach Rugby as a business, it is failing, investors should be running for the exits, trouble is they would be in the log jam behind the fans, those who are trying to punch on with the players.​

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Now the argument is that Chieka and Co aren't really responsible for the performance of the players, now I dispute that in terms of skills and long term skill improvement but agree whole heartedly with regard to their actual application. If Chieka is to be held to account (and the support staff as well and they should be) more than a couple of players need to be as well. Incentive contracts need to be brought in and if some big names walk, fine it shows where their heads are and that is collecting a shit load of money, in actuality multiples of the median wage (in Hooper's case a life time of the median wage in 5 years) and they fail to perform, not in terms of win:loss but in skill development and application. The only other profession you can do that is as a Banker or Politician.​

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Finally not in defence of drunken idiots starting fights, there is no defence, but it is laughable that Gregan and Mitchell talk about that behaviour not being an appropriate forum to express the frustration (and disdain) a vast number of fans are obviously feeling (and I do agree - where the F%$#$ was the security that incident escalated over minutes it was not quick it should have been interrupted long before it got to where it did), but then the Three Amigos of fools in commentary come out with obvious derision for anybody expressing discontent on social media. So obviously they do not believe that any forum can be used to express valid frustration with the performance of these over paid show ponies and the positivity cheer squad in the commentary box.​

 

[Lorenzo]

Mitchell is a waste of space. He isn't a broadcaster's rectum, and as an analyst, his friendships with half of the people involved means the strongest condemnation he can muster is that he was disappointed. No analysis beyond a failure of the team to 'click', which is the worst possible misreading of the current situation. The only reason any of them bar kafer survive is that they have a monopoly on the game besides the channel 10 simulcast.

As for the idea that the coach isn't responsible for execution - if that is true, why have one? What are we paying him for?

I don't hold the coach responsible for an outlier poor performance. I do hold him responsible for 25 of them.

 

[Joe Blow]

Cheika has to go as does Castle.
Time to rebuild RA from the top down.

 

[Rebels3]

According to the commentators and some regular posters the performance of the Wallabies is not a coaching issue. I would point out the following in rebuttal:-​

1) Poor core skill execution. How many poor passes, woeful running lines (Kurtley Beale running 25 metres across field at least 5 times perhaps one of the most over rated players ever in the Wallabies IMO), Coleman standing on the side of the maul - offside and doing Sweet FA. Folau kicking worse than a 10 year old - surprise, surprise when has he improved as a professional in this aspect of the game.​

2) Chieka's reign has set many failure records - including some that Robbie Deans' teams managed that we never would have reasonably expected to get bettered. But no, we have now seen the achievement of the lowest ranking ever, conceded home series defeats to Ireland, England, record defeats to Scotland and now home to Argentina. On the last there is no doubt Argentina played well, but the Wallabies had so many chances and point 1 told the story.​

​

If we approach Rugby as a business, it is failing, investors should be running for the exits, trouble is they would be in the log jam behind the fans, those who are trying to punch on with the players.​

​

Now the argument is that Chieka and Co aren't really responsible for the performance of the players, now I dispute that in terms of skills and long term skill improvement but agree whole heartedly with regard to their actual application. If Chieka is to be held to account (and the support staff as well and they should be) more than a couple of players need to be as well. Incentive contracts need to be brought in and if some big names walk, fine it shows where their heads are and that is collecting a shit load of money, in actuality multiples of the median wage (in Hooper's case a life time of the median wage in 5 years) and they fail to perform, not in terms of win:loss but in skill development and application. The only other profession you can do that is as a Banker or Politician.​

​

Finally not in defence of drunken idiots starting fights, there is no defence, but it is laughable that Gregan and Mitchell talk about that behaviour not being an appropriate forum to express the frustration (and disdain) a vast number of fans are obviously feeling (and I do agree - where the F%$#$ was the security that incident escalated over minutes it was not quick it should have been interrupted long before it got to where it did), but then the Three Amigos of fools in commentary come out with obvious derision for anybody expressing discontent on social media. So obviously they do not believe that any forum can be used to express valid frustration with the performance of these over paid show ponies and the positivity cheer squad in the commentary box.​

My rebuttal to the coaching bit is that we are equally terrible at Super level when the team is away from Cheika, those that say he’s responsible for the national coaching unit fail to understand the disconnect between the super sides and the national side. The super sides by in large have always done their own things away from what the national side has tried to impose, I guess the issue is philosophy from top down, that includes at amateur level, where pods are preferenced over passing. This has developed the current generation of players and coaching that there is now.

 

[Dan54]

yep but probably the biggest black spot against Chuckles is himself saying the players lacked enthusiasm, I not sure who is to make them try harder!!

 

[Derpus]

yep but probably the biggest black spot against Chuckles is himself saying the players lacked enthusiasm, I not sure who is to make them try harder!!

Id lack enthusiasm too, if i showed up for a test match with a Super Rugby sized crowd who spend more time abusing you than supporting you.

 

[Gnostic]

My rebuttal to the coaching bit is that we are equally terrible at Super level when the team is away from Cheika, those that say he’s responsible for the national coaching unit fail to understand the disconnect between the super sides and the national side. The super sides by in large have always done their own things away from what the national side has tried to impose, I guess the issue is philosophy from top down, that includes at amateur level, where pods are preferenced over passing. This has developed the current generation of players and coaching that there is now.

Actually if you have studied the history the decline started with Macqueen and his structured game. From that point on the players became deskilled and trained to fill the endless recycle game roles. This was reinforced under Jones play by the numbers plan which also devalued the scrum, and saw the first dual 7's experiment (Smith & Waugh). These directions from the Wallabies coaches, even well before any remote integration moves between Super and test level coaching, and even below to club level, saw players who had aspirations of playing at higher levels focus their development on "skills" and training attributes that saw people into Wallabies jerseys, such as Props like Bill Young and Matt Dunning, great around the park and maintaining possession at the ruck, unskilled and useless at what other countries would regard as core duties for a prop.​

These issue became exacerbated over time as the players who actually learnt good core skills for their positions retired and were replaced by those who had never done so having concentrated on the new formula for selection as set by the Wallabies coaches.

I have no doubt that the talent available to the Wallabies is as good as what has been available in previous years, but the direction they have is far less, and the direction that has been set from the top is non-existent and confused. I'd add to that point that the systemic problem is being compounded in terms of backline play and skills by Larkham who is still coaching Macqueen's game plan as we saw at the Brumbies and now the Wallabies. Some people now talk about be over structured in attack and unable to react in defence and this is why, and also why Australian players are deskilled.

We retain a top down system but the top has failed to have a complete plan for development for 20+ years and now Cheika is reaping the rewards, but is also adding to the problem.

Now add in contracting players for 5 years, guaranteeing people returning from OS starting positions (To'omua, TPN, Samu) and you get a picture where people are safe selections regardless of actual form and improvements. The Wallabies (and Super sides) are not selected on form, they are contracted out regardless of outcomes and improvements.

The actual outcomes regardless of opposition, in terms of player performance and execution of basic skills is today no better than when Cheika took office, and in some cases is worse.

 

[Rebels3]

Completely agree with the past creating a structured philosophy. In a way our past successes is a large part in which has created the current mess as many don’t no any different and refuse to move on.

 

[RugbyReg]

Id lack enthusiasm too, if i showed up for a test match with a Super Rugby sized crowd who spend more time abusing you than supporting you.

So that performance was the crowds’ fault? Or just the dude at the end.

Gee I hope the SAF and Argie fans are nice to us.

 

[Derpus]

So that performance was the crowds’ fault? Or just the dude at the end.

Gee I hope the SAF and Argie fans are nice to us.

The dude at the end wasn't the only one hurling abuse, you could hear it over the end of game interviews.

Anyway, yeah the crowd has a huge influence. Home advantage is a thing. Don't see why it wouldn't work the other way around as well.

 

[Dan54]

The dude at the end wasn't the only one hurling abuse, you could hear it over the end of game interviews.

Anyway, yeah the crowd has a huge influence. Home advantage is a thing. Don't see why it wouldn't work the other way around as well.

Though to be fair Derpus, I know you have commented on how little urgency the Wallabies have shown before this week, and you I think were bang on. Don't think we can blame the idiots after the game for them not trying during game.

 

[Gnostic]

The Tui incident is actually showing the shitty nature of Pro rugby in this country.

1) The "fan" was clearly heard over the attempted Hodge/Kafer interview. He was clearly angry and frustrated, but wasn't actually swearing unless simulated swear words "friggen" is now clashed as profanity. It is still what I would regard as a clear breach of the Respect in Rugby Guidelines I like to see enforced at all the games I go to at amateur level.
2) The vision is pretty clear from start to finish as Kafer is interviewing Hodge and even after looking again I don't seem the "fan" push anybody but when Tui grabs him it becomes a full on jostle just like the Wallabies "enforcing" during a game. If Tui's sister was "pushed" from the footage it could have happened during this handbags incident. Is this just obfuscation from the Wallabies management to add further justification to Tui doing his rag under difficult circumstances, supported as ever by the Fox cheer squad? I will also add that while he may have had a few sauces under his belt he was far from pissed, he was clearly legible on the Kafer Mic and wasn't staggering around, so to write it off as a pissed bloke is grasping at straws.
3) As I've said a couple of times where is the security? Another fan (I'm assuming a relative or friend of Tui) frog marches the bloke away by the throat, which if an official personage did that would be open to serious criticism/complaint.
4) Tui is now taking the year off from Rugby.

This last point really says it all for me, the Wallabies players and Super players (and the blind supporters) like to say its only a game and such displays of angst against the team are uncalled for. The problem is that these players are paid multiples of the median wage to play this game and their application is seriously under question. The fact that Tui can now have a holiday from his profession for the rest of the year, regardless of his truly shitty circumstances (but hey that's life - he is not the lone ranger) displays the disconnect that they have from the fan base. With at best stagnant real wages a large portion of the fan base is looking at things like this and saying why am I spending my dwindling discretionary spend on something that does not bring any joy, and the team cannot be fucked even improving on their basic skills. I honestly don't care how "disappointed" they are, because I honestly have to say very very few Wallabies and other Pro players in Australia have improved their skills and application to task to deserve the money they are sucking from the game.

Whilst I do not support the confrontation instigated by this "fan" and as I said it is against the Guidelines I expect to see at games, I think the Wallabies will be very lucky if they do not see more of this, in fact they will be lucky to see the same level of engagement that this bloke displayed. I think that this behaviour while highlighting how bad the problem has become in Australia will actually drive more people from the Pro game, both players and fans.

 

[Derpus]

Though to be fair Derpus, I know you have commented on how little urgency the Wallabies have shown before this week, and you I think were bang on. Don't think we can blame the idiots after the game for them not trying during game.

Spose im just projecting my dissapointment with the crowd.

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[Brumby Runner]

Id lack enthusiasm too, if i showed up for a test match with a Super Rugby sized crowd who spend more time abusing you than supporting you.

Chicken and egg D. The poor performances by the team are what is causing fan frustration and discontent, not the other way round.

 

[wamberal]

You support your team through thick and thin. No true supporter abuses their team.

 

[Gnostic]

You support your team through thick and thin. No true supporter abuses their team.

Lemmings do the same. As usual Wamberal, you come out with a shallow and simplistic statement to discount and deride anybody who dares question and ask for more.​

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Perhaps that is why there are so few supporters left, if there is no pleasure in the event and people choose to spend elsewhere, especially when they see players taking vast sums for very little real improvement. According to you none of them are true supporters, I am certainly not, I don't abuse, but I certainly ask for better and criticise where it is due.​

 

[Derpus]

Lemmings do the same. As usual Wamberal, you come out with a shallow and simplistic statement to discount and deride anybody who dares question and ask for more.​

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Perhaps that is why there are so few supporters left, if there is no pleasure in the event and people choose to spend elsewhere, especially when they see players taking vast sums for very little real improvement. According to you none of them are true supporters, I am certainly not, I don't abuse, but I certainly ask for better and criticise where it is due.​

I dont think hurling abuse is questioning or asking for more, hey. Its just hurling abuse.

Im with Wamberal. Aus rugby is in strife for a whole slew of reasons but you keep supporting them, otherwise what's the point?

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[Gnostic]

I dont think hurling abuse is questioning or asking for more, hey. Its just hurling abuse.



Im with Wamberal. Aus rugby is in strife for a whole slew of reasons but you keep supporting them, otherwise what's the point?



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Hence why I think there are less and less turning up. What's the point, they are not worth supporting, but many will have a spray on their way out the door, doesn't achieve anything but they don't want to quietly slink away.

I also don't think it was really abuse, the "fan" or ex-fan now was having a heated go at them ()from the video words to the effect of 'its not friggin good enough' unpleasant and delivered with derision and venom but it could only be termed abuse by someone who has never really been faced by real abuse.

 

[gel]

If Tui's sister was "pushed" from the footage it could have happened during this handbags incident.

Yes, she is in the bottom right of the footage, being shielded by the older woman. Right next to the jostling as it occurs. (dunno if she got shoved before that though as it's not shown).

TBH the fan got what was coming to him though, although it could have been worse for him:

 

[Strewthcobber]

Tele is reporting that Tui was talking with his family seated in the stands when the guy pushed through the family to get to the fence

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