Wallabies v Pumas, GIO Stadium, Canberra, Sat 16th September

[Braveheart81]

I think this is where the argument that 'the Bledisloe is the pinnacle of our game' comes in. Players should rate winning the Bledisloe as more important than the World Cup. Rugby's version of State of Origin i suppose.

Well, for any of our current players winning the Bledisloe Cup and winning the Rugby World Cup are both things that none of them have experienced.

The only thing they can more directly control is participating in those things. Players generally participate in far more Bledisloe Cup contests because we contest it every year than Rugby World Cups so it isn't really surprising that they base important career decisions around trying to go to a RWC.

 

[dru]

I find your argument a bit strange here. Regardless of the year, all coaches of all teams look to blood good young players when they can.

What Cheika has done this year is pretty standard practice IMO - Link did it, Deans did it, Knuckles did it etc.

Having one started and a few bench youngsters hardly makes it a 'development team'. And the one that is a legitimate development guy (Uelese) could well be sensational. Would you prefer he be left out and an older guy like Hanson get the nod?
.

I guess yes I was surprised that Hanson wasn't in discussions, though we would have been stretching depth. Fardy is an obvious example. [Uelese himself is a find - I'd liken him to the appearance of Itoje or Kolisi. Or ast least hopefully the ability to do this.]

We miss the trend though - We go through a 4 year cycle where only the RWC year sees a team that is built and run at full strength. Outside of this we run development teams where experimentation is the key.

As I said, not simply Uelese - the match day 23 has been replete with inexperience and this has been done intentionally dropping players who are considered too old, not now for this game, but in 2/3/4 years time. Certainly the back row is a combined experiment and development.

It compromises the jersey outside of the RWC year. I sort of understand these experiments and development squads playing Scotland/Fiji etc earlier in the year. Though I definitely think it is not respecting the teams that front us. But when we front the ABs, and the Boks for that matter, it disrespects not just the opposition but the long term fan. It's also led to an unnecessarily low W/L ratio - so presumably Cheika's KPIs don't include success outside of the RWC.

Anyway, the discussion is circular.

 

[dru]

BTW, I'm not outraged, I'm despondent.

 

[barbarian]

But outside of Fardy, who really has been dropped for being too old?

 

[Derpus]

But outside of Fardy, who really has been dropped for being too old?

Possibly Moore, but only after torrid performances.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Who should be selected ahead of Uelese and Robertson? For all the criticism of Robertson, it's hard to pick a LHP that is a substantially better candidate right now. Smith played in June and also got dusted up. Roberston has been pretty solid at scrum time and had a good workrate around the park through the Rugby Championship.

Whilst we'd all like them in the squad, it's hard to argue that RHP or Matt Philip wouldn't also be development selections if they were playing right now.

The short answer BH is Ben Alexander. Best position is LHP, very experienced and has been in top form most of the 2017 Super Rugby comp.

 

[Braveheart81]

The short answer BH is Ben Alexander. Best position is LHP, very experienced and has been in top form most of the 2017 Super Rugby comp.

That's pretty marginal though. Would Alexander clearly perform better at test level? It's very hard to say. The Tahs scrum was crap this year and a reasonable portion of that has to be due to having poor locks. Certainly Kepu's scrummaging at Wallabies level is much better than it was this season and Robertson has barely been penalised at all at test level with decent locks behind him.

Alexander last played a test in 2014. It would be an unbelievably unusual move for a coach to go back to a 32 year old who hasn't played a test for 3 years to try and work out if they're better than the 22 year old who was in the squad last season.

 

[Scrubber2050]

^^^^^
"was in the squad last season"

He didn't deserve to be there last season, or this season. That is the real point

 

[Braveheart81]

^^^^^
"was in the squad last season"

He didn't deserve to be there last season, or this season. That is the real point

Who is the more deserving option?

What has been poor about Robertson's performances?

Through four Rugby Championship matches he's given away one penalty at scrum time.

This is in comparison to a suggestion that Ben Alexander should have been selected in his place.

Lots of people are saying that Robertson has been crap but no one has really quantified how in any way.

 

[Scrubber2050]

I think Robertson makes no impact (vast majority of the time) either at scrum time or around the paddock. He may have his moments but dominates nothing, even when coming on as a "finisher".

How many penalties has he won ? I have no idea.

He is sluggish around the field and seems to cover small distances. Would love to know his GPS stats (but even they can be misleading, depending on who is in the jumper).

His breakout year at the Tahs was very good - he solidified the scrum which previously had roller skates. Since then IMO he has regressed, both at Tahs level and certainly at Wallaby level. Why ? Fucked if I know.

I do however, think Tom will make a fine doctor one day.

 

[Braveheart81]

Who is a significantly better option right now?

Scott Sio has been penalised 4 times at the scrum in the Rugby Championship. All the penalties we've given away at scrum time have been on the LHP side (and Moore once).

His involvements off the bench have been pretty good statistically in terms of making a decent number of tackles in the time he is on the field.

I'm not really sure what you're expecting on him and again, you haven't offered an alternative.

He seems to be as good an option as we have available right now as anyone else. Things might well be different if Slipper or Ainsley were healthy.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Who is the more deserving option?

What has been poor about Robertson's performances?

Through four Rugby Championship matches he's given away one penalty at scrum time.

This is in comparison to a suggestion that Ben Alexander should have been selected in his place.

Lots of people are saying that Robertson has been crap but no one has really quantified how in any way.

I am saying that BA would be better. No-one who gets to play at the top level is crap, but some do not quite meet the requirements of the job, whether that be measured by the fans or by the coaches. The Brumbies scrum this year was stronger than most, and certainly stronger than the Tahs. Ben A played some time at LHP and as well as holding the scrum up was very involved in open play as well. He was certainly playing at a higher level than he had over recent years even probably when he was last an incumbent. And since when is 32 considered to be old for a prop. Most are just getting into their prime then and are good for another 4 or 5 years at least. As a prop, Ben A is a spring chicken not just a hatchling.

 

[Braveheart81]

Ben Alexander also had the benefit of playing in front of Arnold and Carter who definitely provide a good scrum.

Robertson had Mumm and Skelton, one is a 6/lock and the other a noted average scrummager. I think it's no surprise that after being penalised a lot at Super Rugby level, Robertson's scrummaging performance has been significantly better.

It would be a baffling decision for Cheika to revert back to 32 year old prop that hasn't played a test for three years on the basis that he might be better than a current test player.

I think most of the criticism of Robertson is based on his Super Rugby season (which I agree was well below 2016) and the Tahs poor season. I have seen little in the tests to suggest he isn't doing a solid job.

 

[Froggy]

I also don't get the criticism of Robertson. I am pretty sure he hasn't conceded a single penalty in the RC, and won several last Saturday, both against the Argies No 2 prop and, when he got yellow, against their number one. He also does plenty of defensive work in close, as his tackle stats show every week, and even in a poor year for the Tahs he was their number 2 tackler after Hooper.

While some here seem to demand meat and potatoes from a prop, when one delivers that they want run metres, tackle bursts etc. I can imagine the outcry if Robertson came on and made a couple of spectacular runs in the centres, but couldn't hold his side of the scrum up.

 

[Up the Guts]

Robertson is just a good solid player. He's not going to run 60m to score like Kepu or run over guys like Thor but he's a solid scrummager and does the hard work around the park. He's probably never going to set the world on fire but long term I think he will at least make for a good bench player in the Wallabies who can come on and solidify the scrum if need be and do some of the hard yards around the park.

 

[Scrubber2050]

^^^^^^
Shit I take it all back
Robertson is a champion

 

[Derpus]

The criticism of Robertson was at least partly justified as his Super season really didn't justify his initial inclusion in the Wallabies squad, let alone team. BH is right though in that there aren't many viable alternatives. The Ben Alexander suggestion makes me cringe.

Robertson's cameo's have since justified his inclusion from the bench. I think he would be badly exposed over 60 minutes but for 20 odd, he has proven competent.

 

[Mr Doug]

I understood Ive just been waiting for a chance to compare that Jersey to a budgerigar.

Budgerigars " natural colours" are green and gold....... hard to beat, and easy to follow!!

 

[dru]

Front page news from Coetzee suggests he wont be adjusting the team, not even Marx and Rhule. So definitely a follow up to the Perth test.

Hopefully this fits with Cheika continuing with consistent selections.
x Fitness will be interesting, bench important even more than usual
x Line out fundamental
x D strength through the ruck surely to be beefed up

Otherwise let the backs rip and let the pigs into 'em. Go Wallaby.

 

[wamberal]

Don't forget mental strength. Playing at altitude is as much a mental challenge as a physical one.