ShtinaTina
Alex Ross (28)
Really? Anyone see this anywhere else?
Waratahs 2017
- Thread starter Lindommer
- Start date
- Status
Really? Anyone see this anywhere else?
gowaratahs
Sydney Middleton (9)
With regard to coaching, and who could take over from Gibson if indeed he must be replaced, it's not as simple as picking Simon Cron just because he's worked wonders with Norths and did quite well with the Rays. Same goes with Coleman, though equally just because you've been an assistant coach doesn't mean you're the right person for the job - think Foley, think Graham, think Gibson.
For a potential coach-signing committee, it's about understanding the dynamic of the player group and what sort of coach is able to take them from where they are to where you want them to be. You need to consider the age of the core group that you want to take forward and how long you've locked them in for too, and what sort of coach they need - whether that be a hard-arse who treats the players like employees, a visionary that focuses on motivation, one of the boys that relies on relationships over discipline, etc, etc.
McKenzie's success at the Tahs and Reds - both of which he turned prodigiously talented players into winners through approaching coaching as if it were a business (including smart talent identification - at least with the Tahs) - though his failure at the Wallabies is likely to be due to the same approach not being what the core player group at the time needed to be successful (some would argue they needed even less carrot and more stick, others not).
Nucifora's "success" at the Brumbies in 2004 - having taken over a team that literally coached itself after some years of strong performance under Jones, a team that had a tight-knit and fabulously talented core, a strong culture and an incredibly talented group of kids coming through (the seeds of which Macqueen sowed years before) - let's face it, you could've called Brumby Jack their coach and they'd still have performed. Interesting too the leadership group got rid of Nucifora before they season was even over - he got to keep the title but the players rejected his style because it wasn't necessary for their continued success.
No player would argue that Michael Foley as an assistant coach at both national and provincial levels wasn't a great guy, some players would say even a close mate - but when he got promoted there was no respect from a group mid-career and mostly Wallabies, and this may be the case with Gibson too.
So we bring in Cheika in 2013. There's a young core of talented guys and Folau surprisingly drops in our laps - and a year later Potgeiter. Cheika's style suited the group at the time and his idea that supremely fit players tend not to get injured worked wonders too. Though would he have had the same success without Izzy and JacPot? Would his style have suited a different generation of Brumbies? How much was the 2014 title down to Cheika?
So to cobble together the previous ramblings, which could be expanded to include Eddie Jones' stint coaching the Reds (92-3 at Loftus comes to mind), choosing a coach has to take in more than a candidate's recent success at the next level down, or whether they've been a good assistant. As to who is best for the Tahs right now - and I don't think Gibson is that guy as he lacks oratory and visionary skills - and it's tough given there will be a mature core (Hooper, Foley, Kepu, Phipps, Beale) contracted for the next few years that will need a coach that can get their respect regardless of whether they have a game plan.
So can you consider Cron or Malone in that context? Certainly not Nathan Grey - surely he'd go the way of Michael Foley in an instant. Ask yourself if either could win over the dressing shed as a first step to success? An interesting discussion.
For a potential coach-signing committee, it's about understanding the dynamic of the player group and what sort of coach is able to take them from where they are to where you want them to be. You need to consider the age of the core group that you want to take forward and how long you've locked them in for too, and what sort of coach they need - whether that be a hard-arse who treats the players like employees, a visionary that focuses on motivation, one of the boys that relies on relationships over discipline, etc, etc.
McKenzie's success at the Tahs and Reds - both of which he turned prodigiously talented players into winners through approaching coaching as if it were a business (including smart talent identification - at least with the Tahs) - though his failure at the Wallabies is likely to be due to the same approach not being what the core player group at the time needed to be successful (some would argue they needed even less carrot and more stick, others not).
Nucifora's "success" at the Brumbies in 2004 - having taken over a team that literally coached itself after some years of strong performance under Jones, a team that had a tight-knit and fabulously talented core, a strong culture and an incredibly talented group of kids coming through (the seeds of which Macqueen sowed years before) - let's face it, you could've called Brumby Jack their coach and they'd still have performed. Interesting too the leadership group got rid of Nucifora before they season was even over - he got to keep the title but the players rejected his style because it wasn't necessary for their continued success.
No player would argue that Michael Foley as an assistant coach at both national and provincial levels wasn't a great guy, some players would say even a close mate - but when he got promoted there was no respect from a group mid-career and mostly Wallabies, and this may be the case with Gibson too.
So we bring in Cheika in 2013. There's a young core of talented guys and Folau surprisingly drops in our laps - and a year later Potgeiter. Cheika's style suited the group at the time and his idea that supremely fit players tend not to get injured worked wonders too. Though would he have had the same success without Izzy and JacPot? Would his style have suited a different generation of Brumbies? How much was the 2014 title down to Cheika?
So to cobble together the previous ramblings, which could be expanded to include Eddie Jones' stint coaching the Reds (92-3 at Loftus comes to mind), choosing a coach has to take in more than a candidate's recent success at the next level down, or whether they've been a good assistant. As to who is best for the Tahs right now - and I don't think Gibson is that guy as he lacks oratory and visionary skills - and it's tough given there will be a mature core (Hooper, Foley, Kepu, Phipps, Beale) contracted for the next few years that will need a coach that can get their respect regardless of whether they have a game plan.
So can you consider Cron or Malone in that context? Certainly not Nathan Grey - surely he'd go the way of Michael Foley in an instant. Ask yourself if either could win over the dressing shed as a first step to success? An interesting discussion.
gowaratahs
Sydney Middleton (9)
Izzy's engaged to a Silver Fern, so it's not beyond conceivable - though extremely unlikely till after the 2019 RWC. Some friends having a laugh, for now.
Pass it to Dunning!
Bob Loudon (25)
It is entirely likely that Folau ticks over the Giteau rule this Wallaby season, so it's certainly conceivable that he leaves for the Blues next year.
Hawko
Tony Shaw (54)
waiopehu oldboy
Stirling Mortlock (74)
Max individual salary under the NZRU cap is $195K & he wouldn't qualify for any of the top-ups therefore Blues would have to fund any extra themselves while staying within the team cap of $4.65Mn. Good luck with that, unless of course Izzy is prepared to play for love not money
.
Max individual salary under the NZRU cap is $195K & he wouldn't qualify for any of the top-ups therefore Blues would have to fund any extra themselves while staying within the team cap of $4.65Mn. Good luck with that, unless of course Izzy is prepared to play for love not money
Yeah cheaper to buy a lot of plane tickets
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
IMO there has always been far too much reliance on the personality of the HC and not enough on the actual systems and staff he/she intends to implement. A brilliant HC will rarely succeed without a complete plan to address S&C, skills (including all those places Australian Players are deficient as well as set pieces) and defence. Any selection process has to look at the roster of contracted players and question the HC candidates on the compatibility of their plan with the players on contract and potential recruits and look at what potential developments can be made. All of that also has to be examined in the light of the game plan that is expected to be played by Fans and required to be successful in their eyes, just not on the score board. I doubt anybody in Australian Rugby for instance would think much of the Brumbies play (and holding up their attacking master class against a Reds team that couldn't defend a custard slice is not proof of effective attack).
In short the whole system of selecting coaching in Australia is flawed, and produced flawed results. Any election process needs to be looking holistically at the system/coaching team required to achieve the goals. No individual appointment will achieve the results except by luck of the stars aligning.
swingpass
Peter Sullivan (51)
nor the Rebels for that matter
Last time we did that we ended up with a guy who had won numerous Shute Sheild's and coached Aus Junior sides
Hickey didn't work out that well
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
I think Hickey's failure had less to do with his experience, and more to do with the undue influence his pigs coach had on their style of play.
p.Tah
John Thornett (49)
I don't think Hickey did the tactical day to day coaching. I agree it was pretty much Foley.
The footage from the coaches box in the documentary 'the Code' and Foley's responses at the Fan Forum certainly gave me that impression.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
And how do you stop that happening again (a rookie coach with more experienced assistances) ?
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
Same thing happened at Brumbies with a rookie assistant steamrolling a more experienced head coach.
So again, not sure Hickeys SS background was the major issue.
His disease to please,being the major ingredient in his failure.
So again, not sure Hickeys SS background was the major issue.
His disease to please,being the major ingredient in his failure.
Jagman
Trevor Allan (34)
Nope. The Giteau rule is 60 plus 7. This is Folaus 5th year in rugby so he needs another two years to qualify no matter how many tests he racks up.
Sent from my FP2 using Tapatalk
Strewthcobber
Andrew Slack (58)
We'll have to rename it the Folau rule when they change the rules for him next year
T
TOCC
Guest
Lets not kid ourselves, the 'Giteau clause' was an entirely arbitrary figure plucked out of the air to suit the interests of who they wanted to bring into the team, there was no scientific metric applied to figure it out. If Giteau had 50 caps, then it would have been 50 caps, if he had 6 years experience, it would have been 6 years.
In my opinion it should be scrapped altogether, wearing the Wallaby jersey should be used as a means of retaining players and bringing them back. If Folau ticks over the '60 caps' or whatever it is, what's to then stop him from heading to Europe knowing that he can play in the RWC and the RC when it suits him but also earn the riches on offer in the North.
In Genia's case, use the lure of the Wallaby jersey as a carrot to bring him back to Australia, at the moment he is getting his cake and eating it too.
- Status