Waratahs 2024

[Derpus]

Been some weird new posters about lately.

Edit: bit of pot kettle there, I'll admit.

 

[Pfitzy]

Been some weird new posters about lately.

World Cups are like bait for the feeble

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

 

[Braveheart81]

How about not giving top ups to players who don't make the Wallabies? Maybe top[ ups should be scrapped and incentives increased for numbers of tests played/number of wins etc.

Top ups are a big method of keeping our best players in Australia.

Particularly when injuries are frequent, players want guaranteed money that they can plan their life around, not potential earnings if they remain healthy and get selected.

You are also contracting a player based on what they can earn in their next contract (i.e. their active market). It's a reality of sport (and employment in general) that you tend to overpay for people towards the end of their career because they're at their peak earnings potential so it is never going to be "cheap" relative to how they perform. The best outcome you've got essentially is that they performed to their pay level.

For players earlier in their career it's far more likely that they can outperform their current contract.

 

[molman]

With the Brumbies off playing Suntory, The Force off playing the Cheetahs, the Rebels off playing Kintetsu soon and The Reds hosting the Wild Knights in Nov, what do the Waratah's have going on?

Is this a byproduct of the current financial woes. Unable to get the same development opportunities off the ground? Feels like we're behind with our squad too, keep waiting to hear some signings.

 

[rugbyAU]

With the Brumbies off playing Suntory, The Force off playing the Cheetahs, the Rebels off playing Kintetsu soon and The Reds hosting the Wild Knights in Nov, what the do the Waratah's have going on?

Is this a byproduct of the current financial woes. Unable to get the same development opportunities off the ground? Feels like we're behind with our squad too, keep waiting to hear some signings.

Yep pretty fucking disappointing

 

[molman]

Yep pretty fucking disappointing

I look at the experience The Force lads are having on their tour and just think what a great opportunity to develop, allow some of their new signings to settle in.

I know a couple of the boys are at the RWC and some over playing with the BaaBaas, but a bunch would really do well to have a run around against some quality opposition.

I'm also curious about how silent everyone's been on the possibility of the Waratahs handing over ownership to the RA in their vague and yet to be defined centralisation plans.

 

[HooperPocockSmith]

I look at the experience The Force lads are having on their tour and just think what a great opportunity to develop, allow some of their new signings to settle in.

I know a couple of the boys are at the RWC and some over playing with the BaaBaas, but a bunch would really do well to have a run around against some quality opposition.

I'm also curious about how silent everyone's been on the possibility of the Waratahs handing over ownership to the Rugby Australia in their vague and yet to be defined centralisation plans.

Hypothetically speaking, if RA gets their act together and consults with some learned minds around centralisation and player development, I think the Tahs (and probably the Rebels) need this change of ownership (and culture) the most. The rot in Australian Rugby started in Moore Park and has continued down in Daceyville.

The Brumbies are a well-run organisation on the field, the Reds are in a decent financial position off it and the Force have the private money.

 

[molman]

Hypothetically speaking, if Rugby Australia gets their act together and consults with some learned minds around centralisation and player development, I think the Tahs (and probably the Rebels) need this change of ownership (and culture) the most. The rot in Australian Rugby started in Moore Park and has continued down in Daceyville.

The Brumbies are a well-run organisation on the field, the Reds are in a decent financial position off it and the Force have the private money.

I'm not sure a piecemeal ownership model makes sense across the comp. Also by what merit or measure do RA have the credentials to better manage things? Their historic decision making and the position the game is in now doesn't speak well to their governance capacity or even business prowess.

... and if we go this route do we go full Irish where Leinster has always been a little stacked and forms the core of the Irish team. Do you stack one of the RA Super franchises with the core of the Wallabies such that they become the one to start winning the competition. How would the various franchises feel about this? Most of the top-up/funds going to one team?

 

[HooperPocockSmith]

I'm not sure a piecemeal ownership model makes sense across the comp. Also by what merit or measure do Rugby Australia have the credentials to better manage things? Their historic decision making and the position the game is in now doesn't speak well to their governance capacity or even business prowess.

... and if we go this route do we go full Irish where Leinster has always been a little stacked and forms the core of the Irish team. Do you stack one of the Rugby Australia Super franchises with the core of the Wallabies such that they become the one to start winning the competition. How would the various franchises feel about this? Most of the top-up/funds going to one team?

You're right; we don't have any evidence to suggest they do. I guess my comment was more based on the ineptitude of the Waratahs for so long (junior pathways, player recruitment/development/retention, results). I think they would have the most to gain from cultural overhaul and management change. Whether centralisation would do that - I'm not sure.

The Leinster point is interesting. I'd be interested to hear what Munster fans think about the prioritisation of Leinster over the last little while. Although, in their defence, a large number of test players do come from Dublin and the surrounding areas. I suppose it comes down to balancing the interests of the national team by building combinations and depth at one province vs the performance of the others.

 

[molman]

You're right; we don't have any evidence to suggest they do. I guess my comment was more based on the ineptitude of the Waratahs for so long. I think they would have the most to gain from cultural overhaul and management change. Whether centralisation would do that - I'm not sure.

The Leinster point is interesting. I'd be interested to hear what Munster fans think about the prioritisation of Leinster over the last little while. Although, in their defence, a large number of test players do come from Dublin and the surrounding areas. I suppose it comes down to balancing the interests of the national team by building combinations and depth at one province vs the performance of the others.

Re: Leinster. The situation is and has been rather similar in Australia with most teams drawing on players from NSW and Qld and most of the Wallabies originating from those two states even if plying their trade elsewhere. The Reds and Waratahs being successful holds more commercial value than the other franchises succeeding.

The Irish situation has evolved with the base rising such that all the provinces are competitive these days, even Connacht, but it was rather clear that having one strong (winning/successful) province was important. NZ have had similar for a long time with the Crusaders.

Anyway, I just find it rather interesting how silent everyone's been on these developments.

 

[HooperPocockSmith]

Anyway, I just find it rather interesting how silent everyone's been on these developments.

I'm not sure what to make of the silence. Maybe a lot of Tahs fans are resigned to the fact the organisation is a basket case and any change at this stage would be beneficial.

There's absolutely no reason (I'm sure there are plenty) why they can't be like the Brumbies on the development and recruitment front. It just seems year after year, the wrong blokes are brought in. Any good young players they do retain inevitably plateau and either end up on the scrap heap or signing elsewhere and playing better footy.

If I'm a prodigious 18 year old, why would I go to the Tahs? Would I really want to play under a Head Coach with very minimal professional coaching experience (is the MLR even professional?), a backs coach who was a good player but has nothing but mediocrity on his coaching resume and a forwards coach who couldn't take a stacked Easts side any further than a preliminary final in the Shute Shield.

 

[Wilson]

With the Brumbies off playing Suntory, The Force off playing the Cheetahs, the Rebels off playing Kintetsu soon and The Reds hosting the Wild Knights in Nov, what do the Waratah's have going on?

Is this a byproduct of the current financial woes. Unable to get the same development opportunities off the ground? Feels like we're behind with our squad too, keep waiting to hear some signings.

It's disappointing but not entirely surprising given the tahs record in this area in the past. Fair enough the international games take time to set up and they missed this year for that, but I don't see why they haven't at least run something like the challenger series that we had in Qld. I think they even named teams for a Shute Shield all star game last year but gave up on actually playing it. Real missed opportunity.

 

[Adam84]

Even if RA are no better equipped to run a commercial sporting team then each existing super rugby management, they should be able to achieve vertical integration and economies of scales across various departments by bringing all the commercial operations under one banner.

Potentially it means job cuts, ideally it just means consolidated effort in different areas. Rather than 6 individual media departments each working on their own style of output, you can better align the skillsets into their areas of expertise. i.e. actually have someone specialise in infographics so we stop getting the job experience interns doing it.

We could potentially see one jersey supplier in the future providing all jerseys from Wallabies down, and at a stretch we might see corporate sponsorship consolidated with some jersey space packaged up from all teams and sold as a bulk deal.

 

[molman]

Even if Rugby Australia are no better equipped to run a commercial sporting team then each existing super rugby management, they should be able to achieve vertical integration and economies of scales across various departments by bringing all the commercial operations under one banner.

Potentially it means job cuts, ideally it just means consolidated effort in different areas. Rather than 6 individual media departments each working on their own style of output, you can better align the skillsets into their areas of expertise. i.e. actually have someone specialise in infographics so we stop getting the job experience interns doing it.

We could potentially see one jersey supplier in the future providing all jerseys from Wallabies down, and at a stretch we might see corporate sponsorship consolidated with some jersey space packaged up from all teams and sold as a bulk deal.

All very true, though like anything it does take finesse with balancing local interest with those collective interests not to mention that for those franchises performing well in certain aspects of their operations, it could actually lead to a lowering of standards for them and the resulting frustrations that comes with such.

Not to mention assimilation of culture, systems and approach coupled with competency in change management aren't always a given when corporations have grand plans of vertical alignment. I find that organisations are rather poor at quantifying and assessing value, right down to the people performing roles and functions. I say this from experience in both local and global mergers.

RA being based in Sydney makes it all a little easier for the Waratahs.

 

[molman]

It's disappointing but not entirely surprising given the tahs record in this area in the past. Fair enough the international games take time to set up and they missed this year for that, but I don't see why they haven't at least run something like the challenger series that we had in Qld. I think they even named teams for a Shute Shield all star game last year but gave up on actually playing it. Real missed opportunity.

Agree. It seems like a real lost opportunity and I'm a little curious how Coleman feels he's going to elevate this team next year considering his roster is little changed.

 

[HooperPocockSmith]

Based on who they've signed and let go so far, RD1, assuming no injuries, I'd have (I hope I haven't missed anyone):

1. Bell
2. Porecki
3. HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes)
4. Hanigan
5. Amatosero
6. Holloway
7. Gamble
8. Gleeson
9. Gordon
10. Edmed
11. Pietsch
12. Foketi
13. Perese
14. Nawaqanitawase
15. Jorgensen
16. Vailanu
17. Lambert/Thompson-Stringer
18. Holz
19. Lee-Warner
20. Swinton
21. T. Wilson/Grant
22. Harrison/Walton
23. Walton/Tuipolotu

It's not a bad 23 but big issues with depth at prop, hooker, lock, 10 and 15. Another hooker, lock and dependable 15 would do a bit to sure things up.

 

[molman]

Based on who they've signed and let go so far, RD1, assuming no injuries, I'd have (I hope I haven't missed anyone):

1. Bell
2. Porecki
3. HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) (Harry Johnson-Holmes)
4. Hanigan
5. Amatosero
6. Holloway
7. Gamble
8. Gleeson
9. Gordon
10. Edmed
11. Pietsch
12. Foketi
13. Perese
14. Nawaqanitawase
15. Jorgensen
16. Vailanu
17. Lambert/Thompson-Stringer
18. Holz
19. Lee-Warner
20. Swinton
21. T. Wilson/Grant
22. Harrison/Walton
23. Walton/Tuipolotu

It's not a bad 23 but big issues with depth at prop, hooker, lock, 10 and 15. Another hooker, lock and dependable 15 would do a bit to sure things up.

Squad depth is the issue for sure. All the NZ Super squads have much, much better depth where you had teams like the Crusaders playing some of their third.. forth string players to good effect when they had a bout of injuries last season. The team is just too fragile to a couple of big losses like with Bell last season.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Depth is an issue but it seems he is planning to let the current group continue to build whilst letting some guys walk (Harris & Donaldson) and not just signing anyone because we lost one which I don’t mind.

I think Bowen may push Edmed out of the 10 by the end of the year. Hope I’m wrong and he gets back to some of what he showed in 2022 like a few of them i.e Holz as well.

 

[molman]

Depth is an issue but it seems he is planning to let the current group continue to build whilst letting some guys walk (Harris & Donaldson) and not just signing anyone because we lost one which I don’t mind.

I think Bowen may push Edmed out of the 10 by the end of the year. Hope I’m wrong and he gets back to some of what he showed in 2022 like a few of them i.e Holz as well.

I like the building cohesion and the settled nature of the squad, coupled with a bunch of young players with another year under their belts, but I also recall games like that one against the Blues where we were both blitzed and bullied... Bell will help, but our scrum wasn't as solid as you'd like with players such as HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) looking to be struggling for form post injury.

I'd also really like another quality lock. Hanigan is serviceable at this level, but it's really not and never has been his preferred position. Any status updates on Harrison? I really feel for the lad and would have had him above Edmed & Donaldson before his injury. Instead his mate is off steering the Wallabies around in a RWC.

I'd be curious at squad members to probable injury ratios for teams and comparably across the comp. That is, for a given squad, how many players can you expect out on average at any given time.