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Waratahs v Brumbies - Round 8, 2016

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Jagman

Trevor Allan (34)
Sure the Brumbies have some up and comers on the bench but their starting team is a well settled side that has been together for a long time with the exception of Toua who has previous Super Rugby experience. To claim they are just as much a developing side as the Tahs is odd. 5 of the Tahs starting team are more or less rookies.


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Groucho

Greg Davis (50)
Suggest compare the two XXXIII:
The Waratahs 8 from the RWC squad + 3 other Wallabies.
The Brumbies had 7 from the Wallabies RWC squad, 3 other Wallabies + 1 Puma.
Both sides "are blooding a lot of new and exciting young talent".
The reality - one side continues to play better than the other in 2016.
Sure the Brumbies are playing better, but for the coach to publicly declare that the Waratahs' performance was woeful and inept, and not up to the standard required of professional players, is just hyperbole.
 

ForceFan

Chilla Wilson (44)
Sure the Brumbies have some up and comers on the bench but their starting team is a well settled side that has been together for a long time with the exception of Toua who has previous Super Rugby experience. To claim they are just as much a developing side as the Tahs is odd. 5 of the Tahs starting team are more or less rookies.
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My original comment was following this comment from old fella2:
"Seriously, give it a break. The Waratahs were pipped by a team chockful of Wallabies. The Wallabies came, um, second in the world last year. It will not be a great year for the Waratahs, but they are blooding a lot of new and exciting young talent."

To which I replied:
"Suggest compare the two XXXIII:
The Waratahs 8 from the RWC squad + 3 other Wallabies.
The Brumbies had 7 from the Wallabies RWC squad, 3 other Wallabies + 1 Puma.
Both sides 'are blooding a lot of new and exciting young talent'.
The reality - one side continues to play better than the other in 2016."

i.e. BOTH teams are equally "Chock full of Wallabies" (or Test players).

It was Cheika who started the talk about the whole 23 rather than the 15 as "The Team" with his "finishers" so where the new players are is irrelevant.

Let's continue the discussion/comparisons after the Force game this weekend when it's likely to be Waratahs 8 x RWC players v Force 1 x RWC player.
 

A mutterer

Chilla Wilson (44)
Everything Barbarian says is spot on.
Cheika's 2014 success had as it's foundation a forward pack that was absolutely monstering the other side, consistently over the advantage line in attack, knocking the opposition over behind it in defence.
The reason it's not in evidence is that of the main people responsible for this, really only Hooper and a past-it Palu is left. Polota-Nau is injured, and Kepu, Potgieter and Douglas are no longer at the Tahs.
It has to be re-built, and that is NOT Gibson's fault, as some of the muppets on the front page seem to think.


Are you sure it's not Gibson's responsibility?

His acquisitions over the summer haven't delivered. Cam Blades is doing what exactly? The forwards seem wary of contact and as a result we go wide early.

Recognition of the areas where we need to improve surely is the start of a proper rebuilding strategy.
 

ForceFan

Chilla Wilson (44)
Let's continue the discussion/comparisons after the Force game this weekend when it's likely to be Waratahs 8 x RWC players v Force 1 x RWC player.

Make that Waratahs 10 Wallabies RWC squad + 2 Wallabies - 12 - 441 Tests
versus
Force - 1 Wallabies RWC squad + 3 Wallabies + 1NZ/1SA/1Sam - 7 - 93 Tests
 

Lindommer

Steve Williams (59)
Staff member
Firstly, apologies for the delay in posting this report, had a few issues to sort out with my business this week. No, they weren't anything to do with opening bottles or somesuch.

Secondly, a belated congratulations to both the Brumbies and Tans for an excellent display of rugby. A high quality match, most enjoyable to watch.

Thirdly, a much improved performance from the Tahs. Well done.

Some observations:
  • The Tahs scrum was surprisingly competitive against an all-Wallaby front row. Is Ryan (finally) coming to grips with the LH side?
  • The weight difference between the two packs (20kg?) was significant in the end. We need another big lock or two to move opponents at the ruck, I counted only one such ruck all night.
  • The Brumbies' defence shutting down big Willie, Beale and Folau was well-organised and mostly effective.
  • I still think the Tahs' backrow is unbalanced. For me the template for a 6 if Fardy, abrasive, physical, good in the lineouts and BIG. Dempsey's as game as Ned Kelly with a huge motor, but he's not big enough and plays like a 7 to me. He could be extremely effective at the death replacing a more traditional 7.
  • Injuries forced Gibson to select that backline with Carraro on the wing. In hindsight Daryl might've put Matt at 13 and left young Kellaway on the wing. The wingers were poor on the night with both of them making defensive errors, and Matt now not fast enough to score from a break. Robinson doesn't seem to've picked up the rich subtleties of rugby, he's only good in a straight line down the tram tracks; when play becomes unstructured after a few phases Reece looks lost and didn't know where to defend on the left wing for Tomane's second try.
  • Young Kellaway was good on the night, and bad. That injection into the backline to take Beale's pass and put Folau away was lovely to watch. Not so his attempts to return kicks, very tentative. And his one-on-one defence at the back needs a lot of work. I know he's played a lot of 15 in the NRC but at this level he needs to learn the ropes on the wing.
  • That Tahs had enough possession and territory in the second half (which was all played out in front of me) to win two matches, but the Brumbies defence was too good. The experience and composure of the Brumbies pigs at the breakdown was lovely to watch, they knew when to compete and put pressure on Tahs ball. There were also too many occasions when I felt the Tahs lacked urgency at the breakdown in this period and were either pushed back, lost the ball or lost composure; they weren't working hard enough off the ball to retain attacking structures. Deans would be quite disappointed with this aspect of their play.
  • The Tahs handling is still not up to pro rugby standard. There's no reason this shouldn't be fixed on the training paddock.
  • The youngsters who've played this year are keepers. Roach is the third choice hooker and doesn't look out of place wearing 2. Robertson's the future THP for many years. Dempsey should seriously consider moving north or west to get more time wearing 7, he's that good. Holloway should be selected for gold if the form of other Oz 8're any guide. Horwitz and Kellaway need more time on the paddock and they'll be OK. I'd like to see how Hanigan, Sandell and Orr go with a few minutes on the paddock.
This is a settled and skilful Brumbies side, they should win the Australian conference easily and do well in the finals. I didn't watch their recent loss against the Chiefs so I can't comment about their chances against Kiwi sides. For all the Tahs shortcomings they were very competitive against the Brumbies in Canberra and bloody near beat them in Sydney; all isn't doom and gloom ATM. But I would like to see them put some of the weaker sides away.

Two comments about the referee. I was towards the front of the upper deck down the southern end, about halfway between the 10 and 22m lines, and from that distance even I could hear the ref call "use it" at the contentious scrum. It matters not one whit the scrum started to moved forwards after his call, he MUST whistle the scrum up if the Brumbies don't get the ball out ASAP, his actions were perfectly in accord with Law 20 where it states "The purpose of the scrum is to restart play quickly.....". And secondly, there were far too many pointless stoppages let go in the second half. I noticed quite a few where there weren't any injuries, just a few moments to have a drink and a breather. We're in the entertainment game here, up against three well-funded football codes for the punters' dollars and support, it didn't look good.

The current Tahs squad has a lot in common with the federal parliamentary Liberal Party: a lot of former stars are now past their "best by" dates and should be moved on, although some of the Libs' best days were a decade or more ago, not just two years. The Liberal hierarchy have bitten the bullet and put their geriatrics out to pasture, let's hope the Tahs' management do the same.
 

Brumby Runner

David Wilson (68)
Some observations:
  • The Tahs scrum was surprisingly competitive against an all-Wallaby front row. Is Ryan (finally) coming to grips with the LH side?
  • The weight difference between the two packs (20kg?) was significant in the end. We need another big lock or two to move opponents at the ruck, I counted only one such ruck all night.
  • The Brumbies' defence shutting down big Willie, Beale and Folau was well-organised and mostly effective.
  • I still think the Tahs' backrow is unbalanced. For me the template for a 6 if Fardy, abrasive, physical, good in the lineouts and BIG. Dempsey's as game as Ned Kelly with a huge motor, but he'snot big enough and plays like a 7 to me. He could be extremely effective at the death replacing a more traditional 7.
  • Injuries forced Gibson the select that backline with Carraro on the wing. In hindsight Daryl might've put Matt at 13 and left young Kellaway on the wing. The wingers were poor on the night with both of them making defensive errors, and Matt now not fast enough to score from a break. Robinson doesn't seem to've picked up the rich subtleties of rugby, he's only good in a straight line down the tram tracks; when play becomes unstructured after a few phases Reece looks lost and didn't know where to defend on the left wing for Tomane's second try.
  • Young Kellaway was good on the night, and bad. That injection into the backline to take Beale's pass and put Folau away was lovely to watch. Not so his attempts to return kicks, very tentative. And his one-on-one defence at the back needs a lot of work. I know he's played a lot of 15 in the NRC but at this level he needs to learn the ropes on the wing.
  • That Tahs had enough possession and territory in the second half (which was all played out in front of me) to win two matches, but the Brumbies defence was too good. The experience and composure of the Brumbies pigs at the breakdown was lovely to watch, they knew when to compete and put pressure on Tahs ball. There were also too many occasions when I felt the Tahs lacked urgency at the breakdown in this period and were either pushed back, or lost the ball or lost composure; they weren't working hard enough off the ball to retain attacking structures. Deans would be quite disappointed with this aspect of their play.
  • The Tahs handling is still not up to pro rugby standard. There's no reason this shouldn't be fixed on the training paddock.
  • The youngsters who've played this year are keepers. Roach is the third choice hooker and doesn't look out of place wearing 2. Robertson's the future THP for many years. Dempsey should seriously consider moving north to get more time wearing 7, he's that good. Horwitz and Kellaway need more time on the paddock and they'll be OK. I'd like to see how Hanigan, Sandell and Orr go with a few minutes on the paddock.

A good, well balanced report. Have to say though that I missed the reference to Deans. Just a mistake, or some subtle dig at one of the coaching staff that I don't get?

I'd agree that Hanigan and Orr are past due for a go, and I'd think the other Kellaway might be close too. One of Hanigan or Kellaway might be the answer to the No 6 spot, although I also have a high regard for Munro at Randwick who I think could fill in at 6 as well as lock. These players are the future and should be used before they are potentially lost.
 
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