Where to for Super Rugby?

[Zero_Cool]

Keep in mind if your going only SRAU you'll significantly cut your logistics costs from Super Rugby.

In adding a UQ & USyd teams they've already got players and coaches and infrastructure, they'd just see an increase in travel & logistics but that'd likely be able to be made up for by the deceased costs from not having to travel overseas etc.

Obviously it's not ideal, but going alone promoting a pair of Club teams is the way to go.

 

[Bullrush]

RA's in a shit sandwich, which isn't NZer's fault. But I'd take our 33 million for 2 more years, we probably add the Fiji team, and if we keep our rating high at super rugby we could possibly get a bump next round, and you never know might afford another Sydney team. That be 7 professional teams 6 Australian again all with uncertain of outcome so people are watching, more professional positions for players, more players, more interest, more fans, more grassroots. Then Maybe a second Queensland team or a Japanese team.

See what I'm getting at. We have room to grow, and a massive market that is untouched by rugby. I see a lot of crossover casual fans Australia could get if they aren't getting thumped by Kiwi's week in week out.

How's your market if the Australian aren't watching ?

Riiiiight.

Australians will turn away from watching the premier rugby league and Aussie rules comps in the world to watch 3rd and 4th rate rugby players have a go.

All because a Sydney team has the chance to beat a Qld or Perth team?

Most Australians won't care about a domestic comp when they know that as soon as any Australian team plays against real competition, whether at Super Rugby or Test level, they are likely to get walloped.

 

[Bullrush]

Lol you have basically agreed with my argument that Super rugby has been designed for nzru interests at expense of crap product and indeed as you yourself acknowledge as we can’t match the depth of nzr.thanks for providing support for my arguments lol. I find your post funny.

I find your rugby laughable so perhaps we're even.

Apparently being good at rugby means that the competition is designed for your interest. GTFOH - no-one claimed Super Rugby was designed for RA interest when the Brumbies were winning or the Reds or the Tahs. You're saying that the reason Australia can't win Super Rugby games is because NZRU has designed the game to suit them.

Now that would be funny except that its that approach and attitude which spells the absolute death of rugby in Australia.

Ha.ha.

 

[Adam84]

Most Australians won't care about a domestic comp when they know that as soon as any Australian team plays against real competition, whether at Super Rugby or Test level, they are likely to get walloped.

Isn’t that exactly what happened this year though?

 

[Adam84]

At the end of the day I feel like the kiwis want Australia to play in a tournament with one arm tied behind their backs, RA gets a fraction of NZRU revenue, doesn’t have the coaching depth or player resources the kiwis have and doesn't have a massive private equity injection looming. There’s simply no way Australian teams will be competitive with kiwis if the revenue and player resources remains as it is now.

And to be utterly clear shrinking the number of teams isn’t an option because that will only kill the game further.

 

[Bullrush]

Isn’t that exactly what happened this year though?

The uncertainty about being able to travel when they planned the Super Rugby seasons has to be factored in. It was generally accepted that games playing internationally would be difficult if not impossible.

Are Australians going to be interested and invested in watching Australian teams play each other knowing that a few weeks later, the same teams will win just 2 in 25 games against NZ teams?

 

[Rugbynutter39]

At the end of the day I feel like the kiwis want Australia to play in a tournament with one arm tied behind their backs, RA gets a fraction of NZRU revenue, doesn’t have the coaching depth or player resources the kiwis have and doesn't have a massive private equity injection looming. There’s simply no way Australian teams will be competitive with kiwis if the revenue and player resources remains as it is now.

And to be utterly clear shrinking the number of teams isn’t an option because that will only kill the game further.

The reality is we need a bigger footprint to be relevant against other rival codes as well as provide pathways to grow the game. We also need to improve but need winners and we ain’t going to get that with 5 oz teams against 5 kiwi teams in a closed shop but likely would in time with more franchise model (which even bulrush agreed we need more free flow of players). As does not matter how much we improve we can’t match kiwi depth while they limit themselves to 5 teams as we are the 4th footy code and not the first like nz. So what is the answer - pretty clear is do our domestic competition or conference with Fiji and look to expand over time to 8 teams. The kiwis can have their 5 teams and invite any other suckers...sorry I meant teams to join the nzru competition designed for 5 awesome teams with immense kiwi depth no one can come near.

 

[Bullrush]

Let’s test your IQ - which competition do you think oz will stay in if have domestic competition with close contests and oz winners or lopsided TT contests where we win between 2 to 5 games and only see kiwi winners. If you think the latter you clearly don’t have any understanding why rival footy codes been successful in oz and why we actually need TT a whole lot less then nz.

Let's test your IQ - did Australians follow rugby when they were winning Bledisloe Cups and the Brumbies were winning Super Rugby Championships? Did the Reds and the Waratahs see jumps in game attendances when they were beating NZ teams?

Rival codes - mainly NRL and AFL - provide the BEST quality product of their game. You are watching the best players and the best teams on the planet play. That's why they are successful. You originally said

"And there lies the conflict as I am looking at the pro product which competes with nrl, a-league, afl and not the frigging international product. "

If this is the case, there is no point in comparing to the NRL and AFL. They either have NO international product or one that is largely considered a bit of a joke. That makes running a domestic comp easy. Every other domestic rugby comp in the world has to balance the different needs and issues of the international game with their own. Because rugby is a global game.

I'm all for close contests. That's why I keep advocating for an improvement in the standard of rugby in Australia as opposed to playing less quality opposition. It's also why - as you noted above - I am all for the 'free flow' of players between NZ and Aus. However, this 'player depth' situation has not been created by the NZRU and neither are the NZRU at fault for the lack of Australian interest in Super Rugby. RA fucked up somewhere so that Wallabies and future Wallabies preferred to go overseas rather than stay in Super Rugby and play in the Green & Gold.

NZ should be considerate and actively assist in growing the game in Australia again but it is not NZRUs fault that RA is in this position. And it will probably cost NZRU - but I think we will end paying anyway. Unfortunately, our dominance (which plays a great part in ensuring we remain financially viable) is also a hinderance.

 

[Dan54]

Dan. he said they hadn’t decided on the best format(funding and Drua/MP (Moana Pasifika) viability a factor here), and you interpret that to be that NZRU and RA haven’t spoken about a TT at all? Of course they’ve spoken

No, I said they haven't talked between boards , and Marinos says same in paper yesterday. They have nothing to take back to board, him and Robinson have spoken, but boards haven't. Hamish says he is talking to NZRU for first time this week.
Marinos quoted yesterday;
“We’re talking about different options but nothing has been put down in front of either party at this stage.”
The format of Super Rugby Trans-Tasman was firmly put back on the agenda last week when Rugby Australia chairman Hamish McLennan told Stuff that his board was “split” on the future of the competition.
ok, there maybe something in there that I don't understand, according to Marinos , nothing has been taken to either board, which is what Robinson says.
Actually one thing Marinoa is saying that seems the feeling is Drua will get based in Aus during Covid which make sense, as I believe Sydney would be good place, until such time as it can all be back to normal.

 

[Dan54]

[quote="Tomikin, post: 1210636, member: 11026"

How's your market if the Australian aren't watching ?[/quote]

Good enough to get $80 mill a year. That is because NZR sells in Europe etc as well as here. NZR doesn't make any money out of Aus market, or RA out of NZ because (regardless of what Wayne Smith saya in Adam84's post) theSanzaar agreement that they work under means that each party basically gives the other their games on tv. Each union gets whatever they can, and then just get's the other broadcast rights as aprt of that deal as part of their package for tv. Beleive it changed when SA felt they were putting more in the pot through Supersport in SA so wanted bigger cut, so it really shouldn't make much difference.

But good of you to oint out that Australian's are watching the NZR, so obviously helps your tv deal!
A

 

[Dan54]

"Yes" to (a) if it can be handled properly and especially with a plan to broaden to Japan. Then to (b) "how"? I'm increasingly thinking that the interface to NZ with Super quality test level Australian teams needs to be two representative teams. Allow the current WB coach to be DOR to both these teams, introduce the two most successful domestic club coaches, and devise a way to spread the top 70 players equitably.

Of course this requires NZR being willing to play.

Understand what you saying Dru, but the 2 teams will be basically what upset everyone isn't it. Though for test rugby in Aus would be great, with a domestic comp going on at same time below it. But realistically I not sure that run with too many.

 

[Dan54]

Dan, Nzru should pay you a fee as a defender of nzru honour and integrity on this site (with the approach you take of they can never do anything wrong and deny it even if black and white or just plain create diversions to mislead and avoid focus on issues relating to nzru).

If you are already then you deserve a pay rise as you do a Stirling job to keep us going completely feral on nzru.

Mate, if you get feral on NZR because I point out where I think you wrong, you got heaps of problems
That rates as one of your less intelligent posts.
I have never ever said that they do no wrong, all I argue is that RA's problems are caused by RA and NZR, same as I argue NZR's problems are all caused by NZR. Not sure why it so hard to understand that blaming everyone else is just avoiding the problems.

See I get called names for saying the same about games and never blaming refs etc.

 

[Zero_Cool]

Guys we watch the A-League... That's gotta be the worst Football Comp in the world. I remember a few years ago when the Roar was in the final and had a good chance of winning every man and his dog watched it. I feel like anyone suggesting that if we had a competitive comp people wouldn't watch it really don't know Aussies. But as of they needed more proof, the Reds & Waratahs filled stadiums when they were playing well.
Club Rugby still has a good following, the Reds this year had 40k in attendance. Aussies want to watch & Support Rugby, that's just tough when your team is doing poorly. The thing about Australia is the Sporting landscape is so packed if your team isn't doing well, then you support another sport until you're team is going well, we love all sports, pretty sure we watch lawn bowls (actually I've seen it on TV, and have watched it, so can confirm).
We don't care if it's the best comp in the World or not, Rugby is still popular in Australia, we've just not been giving the fans annoying worth watching, and what they want is competitive teams.

As for why people wouldn't watch it, well having a comp that reminds them that were shit every other week, that'll make us not watch... Ohh playing New Zealand regularly that'll kill the game locally. Also as for those saying the games would be 'low quality' I think really don't know what low quality rugby is, because if New Zealand Super Rugby is your standard then you're pretty much more allowed to watch any other rugby ever...

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Mate, if you get feral on NZR because I point out where I think you wrong, you got heaps of problems
That rates as one of your less intelligent posts.
I have never ever said that they do no wrong, all I argue is that RA's problems are caused by RA and NZR, same as I argue NZR's problems are all caused by NZR. Not sure why it so hard to understand that blaming everyone else is just avoiding the problems.

See I get called names for saying the same about games and never blaming refs etc.

Dan I and probably others don’t find this about calling out where people are wrong as I find sometimes your angles to defend nzru are a little obtuse (and that is being as polite as I can). But you know what in some ways I agree partly with you in that the way RA needs to sort out its problems with reform but on the separate matter of super rugby competition which this thread meant to be all about, I also agree they should stop trying to work with nzru on their TT competition and just let them do their own thing and we do our own thing domestic competition wise (which is what hoggy was suggesting). As you see all the angst played out in the media that shows nzru and RA are not collaborating very well in the design of the (nzru) TT competition as much as you see the angst in these threads. The lesson in this for champions league with nz and Japan is set up the competition under a sanzaar type body.

I also find it ridiculous you suggesting a cross border competition like TT is only about ra sorting out its oz problems and nzru sorting out its nzr problems and indeed you make the case why we need an independent organisation overseeing the design and running of the TT competition. As this is about making a product that appeals to fans and current design fails on that and hence requires all parties to come together and take responsibility to fix it. That is where you are so wrong in failing to understand that as nzru taking lead role in design of TT so they have to take responsibility with RA to fix it if they want us in.

 

[hoggy]

Well considering whats happened in Ausralia over the last week and the warnings now that Co-Vid is going to be part of our lives as we move forward.

It would appear to be the height of stupidity to be planning a cross border competition in 2022

Rugby may very well find its financial model under severe stress because globe trotting around the world playing rugby Tests may not be the wisest way of earning a quid for a few years.

 

[sunnyboys]

This is the cruz of it:

"As for why people wouldn't watch it, well having a comp that reminds them that were shit every other week, that'll make us not watch. Ohh playing New Zealand regularly that'll kill the game locally. Also as for those saying the games would be 'low quality' I think really don't know what low quality rugby is, because if New Zealand Super Rugby is your standard then you're pretty much more allowed to watch any other rugby ever."

the idea that SRAu is poor quality is a relative measure. no other country in the rugby world is expected to compare itself to NZ week in, week out. the idea that oz rugby has no courage or honour if it doesnt stick at it is utter rubbish - and frankly pretty bloody offensive.

I loved SRAu. Its the best thing to happen to oz rugby in a very long time. and i am under absolutely no illusion as to its rank in the order of provincial comps. i certainly wasnt surprised by the loses in SRTT, and it doesnt change my appreciation of SRAu.

Its a particular NZ point of view that beating them is the only measure of success. but in fact its fools gold.

 

[Bullrush]

This is the cruz of it:

"As for why people wouldn't watch it, well having a comp that reminds them that were shit every other week, that'll make us not watch. Ohh playing New Zealand regularly that'll kill the game locally. Also as for those saying the games would be 'low quality' I think really don't know what low quality rugby is, because if New Zealand Super Rugby is your standard then you're pretty much more allowed to watch any other rugby ever."

the idea that SRAu is poor quality is a relative measure. no other country in the rugby world is expected to compare itself to NZ week in, week out. the idea that oz rugby has no courage or honour if it doesnt stick at it is utter rubbish - and frankly pretty bloody offensive.

I loved SRAu. Its the best thing to happen to oz rugby in a very long time. and i am under absolutely no illusion as to its rank in the order of provincial comps. i certainly wasnt surprised by the loses in SRTT, and it doesnt change my appreciation of SRAu.

Its a particular NZ point of view that beating them is the only measure of success. but in fact its fools gold.

So if Australian Super Rugby teams were doing well and winning against NZ teams, you would still want to get rid of Super Rugby TT? How many Reds and Tah fans wanted to get out of Super Rugby around 2010 - 2015?

And how many players want to stop playing the better quality comp?

Every serious rugby playing country in the world compares itself to NZ. Just as NZ compares itself to the other top nations. There has always been comparisons to whether Super Rugby is as good as the NH competitions. We know that a strong Super Rugby produces great players and it’s no coincidence that every RWC bar one has been won by a SANZAAR nation.

 

[Adam84]

No, I said they haven't talked between boards , and Marinos says same in paper yesterday. They have nothing to take back to board, him and Robinson have spoken, but boards haven't. Hamish says he is talking to NZRU for first time this week.
Marinos quoted yesterday;

So NZR and RA haven't even spoken about TT yet.

Dan, Andy Marinos and Mark Robinson are representatives of the board and have been talking on a regular basis, and they've confirmed that.

I'm unsure of what agenda you're driving by suggesting the boards of NZRU and RA haven't talked about TT at all, if that were true(which it isn't) then it would just demonstrate both boards are completely unprofessional and not fit the job at task.

 

[Bullrush]

Well considering whats happened in Ausralia over the last week and the warnings now that Co-Vid is going to be part of our lives as we move forward.

It would appear to be the height of stupidity to be planning a cross border competition in 2022

Rugby may very well find its financial model under severe stress because globe trotting around the world playing rugby Tests may not be the wisest way of earning a quid for a few years.

Agreed. All of the debate here may be completely null and void for at least another year or so. Or not.

Who knows

 

[Adam84]

Are Australians going to be interested and invested in watching Australian teams play each other knowing that a few weeks later, the same teams will win just 2 in 25 games against NZ teams?

Yes I think they will be.

Think about that question though, if people aren't interested in watching games when they're winning then how is a TT any better?