Where to for Super Rugby?

[Jon]

48 - 72 hours for the process. That's something at least I'll credit, no drawing it our for months as may be the case in the SA process.

Yeah, given we have a long weekend it'll be 1650 on thursday when they bitch out and issue another statement as opposed to a press conference, as they have all been at the pub since 1000 that morning before the break

 

[Pass it to Dunning!]

I hate to say this, but the ARU are right to axe a team. It's all well and good to blame the ARU bosses for the failings of Australian rugby, but they cannot keep bailing out these money-losing franchises. The money simply isn't there.

Of course it's bad news for Australian rugby, but does anyone want to argue a five-team system is working for Australian rugby? No Australian team is playing well right now, and three of the five are struggling to draw in five-figure crowds.

If we want to get fans back, then teams have to start winning games. Instead, we're spread too thin.

And the situation is getting worse for Australian rugby. The game's status is on the slide. Fewer people are watching on TV, buying tickets or playing. The Wallabies are deeply uninspiring, and there's nothing like a Lions tour or home World Cup on the horizon.

Don't get me wrong. It sucks. It sucks for the players and staff of the axed team. It sucks for their fan base. It sucks that rugby is surrendering a market. But what's the solution? Making the ARU board work for free is not going to make the Force or the Rebels or the Brumbies profitable.

 

[Jon]

Coaching is the major issue at all levels. The ARU needs to upskill coaching everywhere as at the grassroots level it drives participation and engagement and at the professional level turns players with natural talent into good professional players.

Improving the pathway to be coming a professional coach in Australia has to be well planned. There is pretty much zero evidence to suggest it is possible to become a good professional coach as an Australian without going overseas for a substantial amount of that development.

that and the ARU have allowed coaches to be signed who have absolutely no justification for being there.

Graham and foley should not have gotten the force jobs.
Graham should DEFINITELY not gotten the reds job
stiles should not have gotten the reds job when you had all the wealth of experience there last year
magahn might be coming to the end of his usefulness
wessels is still such an unknown it's worrying me big time. He seems to have gotten in the right people around him and the potential is there. but it's too soon to tell

 

[Braveheart81]

that and the ARU have allowed coaches to be signed who have absolutely no justification for being there.

Graham and foley should not have gotten the force jobs.
Graham should DEFINITELY not gotten the reds job
stiles should not have gotten the reds job when you had all the wealth of experience there last year
magahn might be coming to the end of his usefulness
wessels is still such an unknown it's worrying me big time. He seems to have gotten in the right people around him and the potential is there. but it's too soon to tell

Outside of Tony McGahan I don't think you can blame the ARU for those appointments.

Those sides all made those decisions on their own.

Wessels does seem to be going well.

 

[Lindommer]

Sorry what? The players stance in NZ is they want fewer derbies cos it's physically way too demanding. The franchises in NZ like the derbies because they generate more $.

So, WTF do the Kiwis want? Their rugby market is saturated and while they present the best rugby they drag in the least amount of money of the three traditional SANZAR partners. Sorta smacks of wanting to have their cake and eat it.

 

[KiwiM]

So, WTF do the Kiwis want? Their rugby market is saturated and while they present the best rugby they drag in the least amount of money of the three traditional SANZAR partners. Sorta smacks of wanting to have their cake and eat it.

They want a more competitive tournament than is currently being presented because they know the current structure/unbalance of the competition is not sustainable. If you continue with a non-competitive competition in the long run the whole competition will be in big trouble regardless of how well the NZ teams are doing. They need South Africa and Australian rugby to be strong in the near future and having too many teams in both countries cases was having the opposite effect. They were against South Africa getting 6 teams but relented.

 

[The torpedo]

So, WTF do the Kiwis want? Their rugby market is saturated and while they present the best rugby they drag in the least amount of money of the three traditional SANZAR partners. Sorta smacks of wanting to have their cake and eat it.

They want all their opponents to be shit so they can win everything


/s

 

[Upthenuts]

Aru should have vetoed the cuts, and instead demanded that countries have to allow national selection to any player in the super comp, that way the nz team bench players could go to the sunwolves, force rebels and kings, nz teams could get some argies and safs etc, the teams talents would be evened there would still be spots for local talent and the comp would be even,
NZ could still demand all blacks play for a local province too, keep the players at home.

the kiwi league team doesnt just get picked from the warriors,

 

[Jon]

Outside of Tony McGahan I don't think you can blame the ARU for those appointments.

Those sides all made those decisions on their own.

Wessels does seem to be going well.

Yeah he does. I'm still nervous though.

and yeah this is why it's frustrating. The ARU as the governance body might not have had power over hiring and firing of coaches. but when in the past they have had to assist clubs financially after past coaches and employees have had to have been paid out after getting fired. they could have mentioned that the clubs were making a stupid choice by not hiring a better/more experienced/more proven coach.

They haven't helped themselves or the franchises for a long time now.

The NRC is a fantastic thing for Aus rugby, but it isn't what Pulver and co are going to be remembered for.

 

[GaffaCHinO]

Outside of Tony McGahan I don't think you can blame the ARU for those appointments.

Those sides all made those decisions on their own.

Wessels does seem to be going well.

Graham was forced on the force by the ARU. Foley was signed by the force only after the tahs swooped In and somehow signed cheika despite him agreeing to terms for the force job but not having yet signed on the dotted and with Foley still being under contract. The force panicked a d signed Foley which was a huge mistake.

 

[Rebels3]

I hate to say this, but the ARU are right to axe a team. It's all well and good to blame the ARU bosses for the failings of Australian rugby, but they cannot keep bailing out these money-losing franchises. The money simply isn't there.

Of course it's bad news for Australian rugby, but does anyone want to argue a five-team system is working for Australian rugby? No Australian team is playing well right now, and three of the five are struggling to draw in five-figure crowds.

If we want to get fans back, then teams have to start winning games. Instead, we're spread too thin.

And the situation is getting worse for Australian rugby. The game's status is on the slide. Fewer people are watching on TV, buying tickets or playing. The Wallabies are deeply uninspiring, and there's nothing like a Lions tour or home World Cup on the horizon.

Don't get me wrong. It sucks. It sucks for the players and staff of the axed team. It sucks for their fan base. It sucks that rugby is surrendering a market. But what's the solution? Making the ARU board work for free is not going to make the Force or the Rebels or the Brumbies profitable.

The more i think about it the more i agree with the sentiment 4 teams is the right decision given the situation, however it is only because of the strategic plan and guidance from the ARU that has led to the situation. There is absolutely no reason why a country as wealthy, player rich and historically performing as Australia can't sustain 5 teams.

Its going to be painful for myself as a Rebels fan or numerous Force contributors on here, that we all know just want to see the game prosper and be as great as it can be in Australia, once they make the decision to cull whoever is unfortunate enough to be culled.

 

[Braveheart81]

Graham was forced on the force by the ARU. Foley was signed by the force only after the tahs swooped In and somehow signed cheika despite him agreeing to terms for the force job but not having yet signed on the dotted and with Foley still being under contract. The force panicked a d signed Foley which was a huge mistake.

This doesn't match my recollection of history with Foley.

Foley quit the Waratahs whilst still under contract in July 2012.

They didn't sign Cheika until September 2012.

 

[Shaker]

Tell you what, i find it hard to imagine how the Rebels would come out on top against the Force in many factors. Force have a bigger supporter base, produced more local talent, have the same success rate and are even revolutionizing the ownership game. Im 100% interested to see what justifies cutting them. What a horrible week for Aussie rugby.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Can always loan them a few locks and flankers to boost their sides... Besides, the main on-field competition would likely still come from some combination of Argentina, Australia and/or South Africa, depending on who flounces.

IMO you are near to the money in lending some resources. But not players - coaches to the Aus franchises. That would make the biggest difference and likely improvement in our conference.

 

[Jon]

This doesn't match my recollection of history with Foley.

Foley quit the Waratahs whilst still under contract in July 2012.

They didn't sign Cheika until September 2012.

AFAIK Chekia had agreed to terms with the force, and had a contract ready to sign, then obviously changed his mind and went to the tahs.

it is what it is. Not bitter about that anymore because at the end of the day he did what he thought was best for him and his family

 

[chibimatty]

I think the Force didn't necessarily sign Foley as a coach either. I think something happened where he was signed to be a coaching director or some such, but ended up becoming head coach when some other deal fell away and time ran out.

I dunno if other Force people on the forum can clarify this for me?

 

[Melchior]

Sorry what?

The players stance in NZ is they want fewer derbies cos it's physically way too demanding.

The franchises in NZ like the derbies because they generate more $

yeah... the underlying current is that they hate playing derbies because they are hard and NZ teams smash each other up, whilst you can just have a training run in the other conferences and get a home final. Jamie Joseph was a special for espousing this particular view.

NZ derbies generate more $. Well that is relative isn't it? Again NZ as a whole generates the least $.

I think your quoted article sums it up perfectly. Happy to take Japanese money but if they don't play rugby to a standard that NZ is happy with then you're gone. But in the meantime we'll cut a few foreign teams to get NZ teams a better chance of making finals with less travel and different time zones so our broadcaster sky will be happy. win-win.

If NZ thinks the other conferences are soft and there are too many time zones surely the logical conclusion for them play more games against NZ opposition?

 

[Dan54]

So, WTF do the Kiwis want? Their rugby market is saturated and while they present the best rugby they drag in the least amount of money of the three traditional SANZAR partners. Sorta smacks of wanting to have their cake and eat it.

How do you work out NZ drag in the least amount of money? I would of thought that they probably drag in a fair amount as aren't we always told games involving NZ teams are the most watched games, even in Aus.
I think it time to stop playing the blame game, as from what I have read in statements from ARU it seems ARU made the decision to drop an Aus team, and THEY took it too Sanzaar, because the declining incomes over the last 5 years, and they couldn't afford to bail out franchises, instead use the money saved to go towards developing rugby. From what I can see NZRU's only part in it was not having any appetite for a Trans Tasman comp. I only hope that the money saved is used on grassroots rugby, and they stick with the idea that teams have to support themselves, and that is partly up to the supporters who have stopped turning up to these games of the teams they claim to support!

 

[Twoilms]

They want a more competitive tournament than is currently being presented because they know the current structure/unbalance of the competition is not sustainable. If you continue with a non-competitive competition in the long run the whole competition will be in big trouble regardless of how well the NZ teams are doing. They need South Africa and Australian rugby to be strong in the near future and having too many teams in both countries cases was having the opposite effect. They were against South Africa getting 6 teams but relented.

But, and this is just a wild guess, i strongly doubt reducing a super rugby team will actually make either of the Wobs or South Africa any stronger. It may have been a contributing factor (though i don't really think that is the case to be honest), but it was only one contributing factor. There are a myriad of other reasons why both countries will continue to struggle.

Not least because, an extra 5 mil or no, there is still a fuckload more money for players in Europe. Beale is on 1 mil a year for god sake.

 

[GaffaCHinO]

This doesn't match my recollection of history with Foley.

Foley quit the Waratahs whilst still under contract in July 2012.

They didn't sign Cheika until September 2012.

The force had done all the ground work to get cheika to aus and coach the force. Terms had been agreed to. It even got to the point where the force had cheika at hq with the belief be was there to sign the contract. However at the last moment he decided not to sign because the tahs had now come Into the picture.

Cheika then refused to sign because the writing was on the wall that if Foley didn't go then the tahs would push him with cheika then next inline to coach the tahs.

The force who had now spend months on getting cheika panicked and within days signed Foley who also saw the writing. I don't remember the exact words by Foley stated he came to the force because of the guarantee 3 year contract.

Then the tahs signed cheika. It was a master stroke by the tahs to get their man and the force were left with egg on their face which they are still feeling the ramifications now. With in a few months of Foley being signed the ceo quit and then sinderberry was hired.