Where to for Super Rugby?

[Brumby Runner]

Just think back to how the Saffas fared when the sporting sanctions were in place. Rugby remained a very strong sport domestically, but without the international competition regularly, the standard suffered.

We would probably finish up as a pacific nations country if we pull out of SANZAAR.

 

[cyclopath]

Northern NSW Numbats and Western NSW Wobbygongs. We already have the ACT and Southern NSW Brumbies.

You do realise what a wobbegong is, and where it lives?

 

[Braveheart81]

You do realise what a wobbegong is, and where it lives?

They're those big plastic canoes that exist in lots of places.

No idea why you'd name a sporting team after one.

 

[kickedmyheight]

If they pull out of SANZAAR then no more Rugby Championship Tests for them. No to mention how much worse the Wallaby team will be for playing amongst themselves instead of against the best in the world like they do in Super Rugby.

Only speaking for myself, I would not advocate pulling out of SANZAAR. The Rugby Championship is great and helps keep the Wallabies near the top of the world rankings (despite constantly losing to those damn Kiwis!). I have always actually been a fan of Super Rugby and think it should continue, preferably with 5 Aus teams involved. At the same time though I recognise that we need a better national footprint/competition underneath Super Rugby, like Currie Cup or the NPC but tailored to the Aus market. Without this we are too reliant on Super Rugby and if after 2020 it all goes belly up we have nothing to fall back on.

Additionally, the recent developments have shown up how weak Aus hand is at the SANZAAR table. So strengthening our game on a national level will also strengthen that hand and allow us greater leverage to get a Super Rugby structure that benefits Aus rugby as well as the competition as a whole.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[Omar Comin']

The bulk of the ARU finances seem to come from the Wallabies and the international Tests right?

If they pull out of SANZAAR then no more Rugby Championship Tests for them. No to mention how much worse the Wallaby team will be for playing amongst themselves instead of against the best in the world like they currently do in Super Rugby.

The ARU (and SA) seems to be trying to correct a mistake they made by expanding the number of Australian teams in Super Rugby which is killing interest in not just AUS rugby but in the whole comp but so many people here just want to break away and do your own comp. With the same players that are getting you the crappy rugby results you've endured for the last 2 years at least. Some are even wanting a comp played by different rules than the rest of the world will be playing by. How shit of a Wallaby team do you want?!

It's like some of you want an AFL-esque or NRL-lite situation where you're almost the only people on the planet who play that game so you can't lose.

Good luck.

There's no need to pull out of SANZAAR, just Super Rugby as it is or how NZ and SA seem to want it. Why stay in it when so few people care about it here and it doesn't give rugby any chance of competing with the other codes in this country, which all provide much greater geographic reach (connection with communities and the professional game), tribalism and local content?

Why would that have to involve leaving the Rugby Championship as well when the test matches work for everyone and generate significant revenues for everyone? The NZRU and SARU keep saying they want their super rugby teams to play more against each other anyway - the biggest obstacle in the way of that is the ARU insisting on a structure with so many local derbies, with us gone they get what they want.

And it wouldn't just be the same players. No reason why an Australian competition can't have a strong international flavour - just with those international players in Australian based clubs.

One last point. The Wallabies have been ranked higher than France almost all of the time since 1995 yet rugby is doing much, much better in France than it is here. Perhaps it's because the French people have a similar mindset to most sporting fans, including Australians - they want to support teams that represent their local areas or cities and that primarily play teams from other areas or cities in their country.

 

[Braveheart81]

How about something like:

Northern Beaches (perhaps with a 2nd home in the Central Coast?)
North Sydney (including North Shore, Hills District, Ryde, Hornsby Shire)
Western Sydney
'Sydney' (East/Inner West/Southern)
Newcastle/Hunter
2 teams from Brisbane (North and South?)
Gold Coast
Melbourne
Perth
Canberra
Fiji

12 team competition, home and away plus 6 team finals with a shorter representative season above it played mid season - either a state of origin series (NSW, QLD and Combined States) or a shorter format Super Rugby, and local club rugby beneath it. Each team could also have a sevens squad.

Other potential locations for teams: North QLD, Central Coast (as an independent team), Adelaide, Samoa, Tonga, Asia?

Pick the Wallabies from anywhere.

Maybe this isn't it, but whatever the answer is (to the question 'how do we stop and reverse the decline of rugby in this country?') it just has to be something that better connects the professional level of the game in Australia to the grassroots. There are too many rugby participants and people with a general interest in the sport that don't care about Super Rugby.

I think the challenge is converting more people into going to watch a pro team (and become a member) on a Friday or Saturday night or a Sunday afternoon.

For much of the rugby community that needs to be in addition to their grassroots rugby on a Saturday.

I question how much those who aren't engaged with Super Rugby (particularly in Sydney or Brisbane) would embrace an effectively lower tier team just because they were only playing other Aussie teams.

Personally I think I would be less inclined to become a member than I am of the Waratahs. It would be a struggle to create passion for that new side that would make you dedicate a significant amount of your social life quota to it.

Rugby League and AFL have the necessary tribalism but I am not convinced that would readily transfer to a bunch of new teams in a domestic rugby comp.

 

[GTPIH]

The answer is 42. Now we just need to work out the question.

 

[Omar Comin']

I think the challenge is converting more people into going to watch a pro team (and become a member) on a Friday or Saturday night or a Sunday afternoon.

For much of the rugby community that needs to be in addition to their grassroots rugby on a Saturday.

I question how much those who aren't engaged with Super Rugby (particularly in Sydney or Brisbane) would embrace an effectively lower tier team just because they were only playing other Aussie teams.

Personally I think I would be less inclined to become a member than I am of the Waratahs. It would be a struggle to create passion for that new side that would make you dedicate a significant amount of your social life quota to it.

Rugby League and AFL have the necessary tribalism but I am not convinced that would readily transfer to a bunch of new teams in a domestic rugby comp.

Well the Waratahs could still exist, either as a representative side again or as they are now but with anywhere from 1-3 rivals in Sydney and probably another in Newcastle.

I think there's a few different ways a national comp could be done and it depends on the goals of the competition.

If you want to maintain a high concentration of talent and the majority of Wallabies based domestically (and with an easier continuation of what we have now) then an Australian competition could effectively be a separate closed conference of Super Rugby with 6-8 teams (current 5 plus Western Sydney and potentially with 1 or 2 teams from Asia or the Pacific). Then the top 2 teams could make a Super Rugby finals series along with the best 6 from NZ and SA (either straight into quarter finals or have 2 pools of 4 followed by semis and a final).

Other option is more like I suggested. And I wouldn't expect such a competition to be a big deal straight away, it would certainly take time to win over people. It might start off as big as the A League or as big as the NBL. But at least it would be based on a formula that works, and I think over time it would grow. It's basically a reset and start from scratch plan. Maybe that's too much too soon, but rugby can't keep going along slowly bleeding to death.

 

[kickedmyheight]

The answer is 42. Now we just need to work out the question.

How many players should be in each Super squad?
How many teams should we have in the NRC?
How many lunches can ARU board members attend each month?

Hmm, might need some more time to think about this. Maybe we can build a giant computer to figure it out...

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[Joe King]

If it’s going to be a legal disaster (or impossibility) for the ARU to cut a team before the end of the current broadcast deal in 2020, then I’m hoping SANZARR will be radically merciful and give Australia its own conference just for the remainder of the current broadcast deal to sort itself out.

The other 11 Super Rugby teams could play a straight round robin = 10 games

The 5 Australian teams (or 6 if Fiji is included - could even play out of Western Sydney if their facilities are not ready) could play home and away = 10 games (with Fiji)

The top 5 teams from the NZ/SA/ARG/JAP conference + the top 1 team from the Oz conference qualify for the finals = 3 weeks

For the next three years, Super Rugby goes from end of Feb-May, and finishes before the inbounds in June. The RC is played over July-August, allowing the test players to be available for the NRC (and other domestic equivalents) in Sep-Oct, thus raising its profile. And finish the year with the EOYT in November.

The lack of competitiveness of the Australian Super Rugby teams is masked because they only play among themselves, with only the top team qualifying for the finals. The NZRU gets a straight round robin with all their teams potentially qualifying for the finals if they are good enough. The SARU gets fairer travel, since they don’t need to travel to Oz, putting them on a level playing field with NZ.

The big hurdle is the broadcasters allowing a shorter season for the remainder of the current broadcast deal. Not sure if test players being available for their national domestic comps would compensate for this. But the whole idea is only temporary, to make it past this seemingly impossible situation.


I reckon people in Oz would start to watch Super Rugby again, the NRC could develop, and Australia would have some breathing space to work out if and how to cut/merge teams, or find another way forward.

 

[wamberal]

Good thinking, Joe.



Send an email to the ARU. Seriously.

 

[stoff]

Part of the current cluster fuck's history is the Saffers demanding guaranteed finals spots x2. They're not going to drop those to pull us out of the shit


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

^^^^^^^^^^ revised finals format is 3 x Conference winners & next five regardless of Conference so they've already given up on the two guaranteed finalist thing (a little to my surprise).

 

[kiap]

<snap>

Part of the current cluster fuck's history is the Saffers demanding guaranteed finals spots x2. They're not going to drop those to pull us out of the shit

Yeah.

Although they've already agreed to drop back to 1 guaranteed spot in a revamp to 3 conferences.

 

[No4918]

Good thinking, Joe.



Send an email to the ARU. Seriously.

Seriously?

That had to be one of the strangest suggestions I've read yet. Not only are SANZAAR going to let us just play amongst ourselves but they will also move the TRC to suit us, there may or may not be a Pacific Island team and the broadcasters are going to be happy.

Makes sense? No, not even a little bit.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Wayne Smith in today's The Australian in a long piece calls for 'root and branch reform' of the ARU as being essential after the latest 'culling' fiasco.

States that the seemingly binding agreement to grant the Force's survival rights through 2020 was shown to neither SANZAAR or (on a timely basis) the ARU board.

This is heavy stuff from the typically timid and deferential (to the ARU) Smith.

It's paywalled but google "ARU needs to be overhauled after this Super Rugby fiasco" & prepare to be gob-smacked..........

 

[Ruggo]

If we are to have a peoples uprising in Australia to take control of rugby. We need to be armed with pitchforks and not cheque books.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

The bulk of the ARU finances seem to come from the Wallabies and the international Tests right?

If they pull out of SANZAAR then no more Rugby Championship Tests for them. No to mention how much worse the Wallaby team will be for playing amongst themselves instead of against the best in the world like they currently do in Super Rugby.

The ARU (and SA) seems to be trying to correct a mistake they made by expanding the number of Australian teams in Super Rugby which is killing interest in not just AUS rugby but in the whole comp but so many people here just want to break away and do your own comp. With the same players that are getting you the crappy rugby results you've endured for the last 2 years at least. Some are even wanting a comp played by different rules than the rest of the world will be playing by. How shit of a Wallaby team do you want?!

It's like some of you want an AFL-esque or NRL-lite situation where you're almost the only people on the planet who play that game so you can't lose.

Good luck.

I had a lengthy reply typed up but I'm having a shit day at work and don't have the energy to put any more thought into it. Bottom line: you make several good points but it seems that we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. I dunno any more and I've lost the will to think about it too hard.

 

[I like to watch]

Fighting with cheque books?
There would be plenty of fighting after the first couple bounced

 

[RedsHappy]

We know from the article that I posted yesterday that he was in no doubt that 5 teams were viable. (Assuming that he was telling the truth that is)

Chairman Clyne made very clear only a week or so ago that the ARU have had real concerns regarding the financial viability of 5 Australian Super rugby teams in aggregate since 2011 (btw the Rebels' first year).