Where to for Super Rugby?

[GaffaCHinO]

Killer: you have read the series of posts when Clyne came down to the Wankers, sorry, Quins club dinner or whatever it was and basically made it sound like we were gone?

I reckon Clyne just wanted a team gone at whatever cost: and his glee was at the fact that he wouldn't have to resign from the well paid role as he had promised to do ~ 1 month after the 48-72 hour notice.

Of course, should facts beyond: he played a handful of times at the most wanker filled club in Victoria emerge, I'll be happy to add nepotistic to the list of non-flattering but accurate descriptions.

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So what your saying is he fit right in?

 

[Killer]

Killer: you have read the series of posts when Clyne came down to the Wankers, sorry, Quins club dinner or whatever it was and basically made it sound like we were gone?

I reckon Clyne just wanted a team gone at whatever cost: and his glee was at the fact that he wouldn't have to resign from the well paid role as he had promised to do ~ 1 month after the 48-72 hour notice.

Of course, should facts beyond: he played a handful of times at the most wanker filled club in Victoria emerge, I'll be happy to add nepotistic to the list of non-flattering but accurate descriptions.

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Yeah thanks highlander, maybe you are right but I think human nature would see him being biased having spent a lot of time in Vic, I would be.

Then if he had made some assurance that the Rebs were safe? I know he denied this when it all started to break but imo opinion he clearly has no integrity and cannot be trusted with the truth.
If Rob Clark gave Cox an assurance I believe it would have come indirectly from Clyne. I don't think even Rob Clarke would be stupid enough to give this type of guarantee under the circumstances without knowing Clyne was on board.

Also the W Smith article saying not only were the ARU fully informed all a long of the sale to the VRU but that they also assisted in it happening.

Clyne simply should not have been involved.

 

[p.Tah]

I can absolutely assure you that an NRL team starting in Perth anytime will garner huge support especially after what has just happened. Many people and most rugby people are just not interested in AFL or soccer.
The support the annual NRL game in Perth has is clear evidence that there is a big market and that was before all the rugby union followers were cast aside by Clyne.

Just some thoughts:
- The NRL cut the Perth team out of the competition because of a need to restructure.
- The ARU cut the Perth team out of the competition because of a need to restructure.
- If the NRL bring a team back to Perth it will be popular. 20 years appears to have healed those wounds.

If the Force come back will they regain their popularity or will it require a long time to heal the wounds?

 

[Killer]

Just some thoughts:
- The NRL cut the Perth team out of the competition because of a need to restructure.
- The ARU cut the Perth team out of the competition because of a need to restructure.
- If the NRL bring a team back to Perth it will be popular. 20 years appears to have healed those wounds.

If the Force come back will they regain their popularity or will it require a long time to heal the wounds?

yes the restructure was when Super league and the NSWRL got back together, I think from memory, after their bitter fight.
The reds were a casualty of this.
If a NRL team comes to Perth I doubt rugby union will ever get back to Perth in any meaningful way. Look at NSW and QLD now, Union is a minor sport.

 

[Runner]

I suspect with legal action pending and the International body wanting a team to go that there maybe no Super Rugby in 2018. How can you make a draw with potential long running legal action ahead.

Players will also look at this and see League as a more stable and profitable long term career than rugby

 

[TOCC]

Hate to be a pedant, but the NRL didn't cut the Western Reds, the Western Reds were at the time of their folding part of the Super League owned by Uncle Rupert, not the ARL. They existed for only 3 years in which time the whole code was in upheaval and they themselves switched leagues.

The decade old Force fill another category, and people will remember that for many years to come. Yes fans will return, but the hatred for the ARU will remain.

 

[Scooter]

Reading that the ARU have knocked back Twiggy's offer to guarantee the future of Force just adds to the crosses for the ARU.

Seriously an organisation / board in this situation could not have acted more incompetently if they had have tried.

 

[half]

Had to be a pedant, but the NRL didn't cut the Western seeds, the Western Reds were at the time of their folding part of the Super League. They existed for only 3 years in which time the whole code was in upheaval and they themselves switched leagues.

The decade old Force fill another category, and people will remember that for many years to come. Yes fans will return, but the hatred for the ARU will remain.

True TOCC.

Also something many in rugby ignore was the super league wars opened up the ACT, QLD & NSW to both union and AFL. League lost a huge amount of its support base. As an example many inner city Souths fans switched to the Tahs.

Super rugby kicked off when league was tearing itself apart, soccer was on the way to bankruptcy vis corruption and poor management.

JON took a lot of credit at the time and many cheered as if look how good this super rugby model is.

By the late 90's league was repairing itself and in the mid 0000's soccer rebadged itself.

We or sorry many in rugby at the time were saying we have come of age and few were looking at the gift league and soccer gave us, especially league.

Rather than build a competition for the future, the ARU believed their own BS and never built a competition for the future sat back and said a US corporation can tell us all how to do it.

OK my old hobby horse but the super league war set us up in many ways an as league repaired itself we never reacted.

 

[Dan54]

Reading that the ARU have knocked back Twiggy's offer to guarantee the future of Force just adds to the crosses for the ARU.

Seriously an organisation / board in this situation could not have acted more incompetently if they had have tried.

I am not too sure I would read too much into any promises by this Twiggy character, did he bail the Force out last time they ran out of money?
And don't get me wrong I wanted Force to stay, but let's not get carried away by someone who is jumping up and down as water is already over the guardrails of a sinking ship!

 

[GaffaCHinO]

My take on this whole thing..

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/?p=110086

 

[Quick Hands]

I suspect with legal action pending and the International body wanting a team to go that there maybe no Super Rugby in 2018. How can you make a draw with potential long running legal action ahead.

Players will also look at this and see League as a more stable and profitable long term career than rugby

Indeed. Not many people remember, but in the end Souths lost the final court case to be retained in the NRL, but by the time the decision was handed down draws etc had to be finalised and they were already back in.

Go the Force, injunct the ARU to prevent them acting on their decision and keep them arguing in court for as long as possible.

It depends upon which issues the case turns, but if the "non-process" followed by the ARU is part of it, they'd be on very shaky ground I'd have thought. Its hard to see any procedural fairness or natural justice involved in any of this.

 

[bigmac]

Once the Western Force licence is cancelled, doesn't that make the current "Force" players in the Wallabies squad ineligible to be in the national team, or is it only players returning from overseas that need to be contracted to an Australian Super Rugby franchise?

I'm confused re what happens to force players. If the force are gone in 2018 and force players remain contracted to ARU but other four Super Rugby teams are fully rostered then force players have no Super Rugby playtime and instead play club footy hoping cheika still considers them for wallabies selection. The other option is to go OS. This is a nightmare scenario but I don't know where force players esp wallaby reps eg coleman, DHP fit into the new landscape.

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[cyclopath]

I'm confused re what happens to force players. If the force are gone in 2018 and force players remain contracted to ARU but other four Super Rugby teams are fully rostered then force players have no Super Rugby playtime and instead play club footy hoping cheika still considers them for wallabies selection. The other option is to go OS. This is a nightmare scenario but I don't know where force players esp wallaby reps eg coleman, DHP fit into the new landscape.

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There is a proposed legal challenge, so it all remains hypothetical. All the focus should, and will, be on the appeal against the arbitration / ARU process etc.......... Hopefully, issues you raise above will be moot points!

 

[swingpass]

Bigmac NO, many of the Force players will already have a contract with the other super sides, some will go OS, some may give up pro rugby all together. they are all currently contracted to the ARU, who is their boss. the ARU have said they will honour or pay out all contracted players. i am sure each franchise has kept space for the Force or Rebels players jettisoned. Where they go is largely up to them. financial considerations aside, one of the major reasons for the cull was to strengthen the Tahs, Reds and Brumbies (and Rebels). the better players wont be let go if they are needed here and are happy to stay. many may well tell the ARU to F@#$ off and go OS.

 

[Slim 293]

The Brumbies have mostly filled their roster.......... apparently they only have two open backline positions.

The ARU are going to have to relax the salary cap to allow the Reds to sign any of the Force's stars.

 

[bigmac]

Bigmac NO, many of the Force players will already have a contract with the other super sides, some will go OS, some may give up pro rugby all together. they are all currently contracted to the ARU, who is their boss. the ARU have said they will honour or pay out all contracted players. i am sure each franchise has kept space for the Force or Rebels players jettisoned. Where they go is largely up to them. financial considerations aside, one of the major reasons for the cull was to strengthen the Tahs, Reds and Brumbies (and Rebels). the better players wont be let go if they are needed here and are happy to stay. many may well tell the ARU to F@#$ off and go OS.

Fair point but if arbitration takes months and months this leaves very little time for players to either join the new franchise, go overseas or for the force to reassemble over summer under sugar daddy twiggy. The logistics are mind boggling whatever happens.
All this thanks to the pulver/clyne double act

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[bigmac]

The Brumbies have mostly filled their roster.... apparently they only have two open backline positions.

The ARU are going to have to relax the salary cap to allow the Reds to sign any of the Force's stars.

Yeah If the rosters are full or near full then taking on force players is hard unless common sense prevails and squads are increased and caps relaxed.

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[Braveheart81]

Fair point but if arbitration takes months and months this leaves very little time for players to either join the new franchise, go overseas or for the force to reassemble over summer under sugar daddy twiggy. The logistics are mind boggling whatever happens.
All this thanks to the pulver/clyne double act

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I think things will move relatively quickly now.

The ARU and SANZAAR will push ahead on the basis that the Force are cut.

Whilst a legal challenge will be announced I think the time frame makes it likely that players will start to announce new destinations for next year.

What's certain is there is going to be a lot of the ARU's dirty laundry aired in the next couple of weeks.

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[bigmac]

I think things will move relatively quickly now.

The ARU and SANZAAR will push ahead on the basis that the Force are cut.

Whilst a legal challenge will be announced I think the time frame makes it likely that players will start to announce new destinations for next year.

What's certain is there is going to be a lot of the ARU's dirty laundry aired in the next couple of weeks.

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Thanks. Hopefully the legal stuff will be over quickly but twiggy has deep pockets and will go down swinging.

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[chibimatty]

I suspect they all think the same: which is part of the problem.
I received some mail to the effect that NZ hated playing in WA - I doubted it because I couldnt see why we would be doing something to please the NZRU - then I came to my senses: this is the ARU!
Noted cynic, skeptic and pessimist that I am I have a bad feeling about the almost instantaneous move of league in pouncing on the ARU's error.

There is a lot of truth to this, as it was one of the reasons touted for the expansion veto by NZ in 2001. New Zealand did not want South Africa moving to five teams and preferred to have Melbourne in the competition instead of Perth, as it was stated that Perth was too isolated with regards to travel. At the time, there were no rivals bids besides Perth and Bloemfontein for the two new spots. Not wanting either of the options available, NZ opted for the veto at the time. This actually led to a banner being held up at the Wallabies-Maori game at Subiaco Oval in 2002 "Hey Kiwis, where's our Super 12 team?" I remember the ground stewards taking it away.

This expansion veto is sometimes referred to as the reason for the "tit-for-tat retaliation" action when NZ lost it's sub-hosting rights for the 2003 RWC. Later, when the Western Force were finally established, Australia attempted to create a "Super 8s" competition comprising the (then) four Australian Super franchises, plus Fiji, Japan, Samoa and Tonga; to be played annually after the end of the Super 14 season. The ARU was to apply for iRB funding for the South Pacific teams to take part, but was informed by NZ that they would veto this too, as "It is not in the iRB's interest to fund an Australian domestic competition" and the plan was shelved. This was considered a further retaliation for the removal of the NZ sub-hosting rights. All the while, South Africa has been riddled with it's political problems regarding quotas and transformation.

So the relationship between the three founding partners has been dicey for more than a decade now, we can see why South Africa is looking at its European options...