Where to for Super Rugby?

[Highlander35]

Dead either way

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Sure, maybe. At least you tried.

You think the big bullies up north will get all the talented force players then ?

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No. I think the Rebels will take a "large" (see 6-8) contingent of players from the Force.

But I think it won't be a simple matter of the best Force players come and replace Rebels.

We'll instead deliberately target Loosehead Prop, Lock, Flyhalf and Fullback, which with Smith gone and Genia to sign, are our big weaknesses for 2018.

And we'll see scrum halfs, backrow players, centers and wings find themselves at the other sides, regardless of quality.

 

[stoff]

As you were saying previously it is difficult to get an appeal heard after arbitration. I was thinking interest of the public, if the argument is roughly 50/50, could tip the decision to allow an appeal.
Thanks for the opinion.

The criteria is an obvious error of law. If leave to appeal is granted it will be limited to discussion around that error of law, so limited to whether the arbitrators reasons for thinking so are deemed correct or not. This will not be the show trial many are calling for. It will be technical legal argument in the most part.


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[Shiggins]

Sure, maybe. At least you tried.



No. I think the Rebels will take a "large" (see 6-8) contingent of players from the Force.

But I think it won't be a simple matter of the best Force players come and replace Rebels.

We'll instead deliberately target Loosehead Prop, Lock, Flyhalf and Fullback, which with Smith gone and Genia to sign, are our big weaknesses for 2018.

And we'll see scrum halfs, backrow players, centers and wings find themselves at the other sides, regardless of quality.

Who do you see that would start ahead of force players in their position atm

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[KevinO]

Who do you see that would start ahead of force players in their position atm

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Safa and Koroibete would retain the wing spots, Hodge would retain inside center. Fainga'a, Mafi and Timani would hold the back row. Add the likes of Genia and Parling for experience.

 

[Killer]

The criteria is an obvious error of law. If leave to appeal is granted it will be limited to discussion around that error of law, so limited to whether the arbitrators reasons for thinking so are deemed correct or not. This will not be the show trial many are calling for. It will be technical legal argument in the most part.


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if it is a very close decision, as I assume it was?, individual judge interpretation could be very different? therefore not obvious?
Do you think it was a very close decision?

 

[Highlander35]

Who do you see that would start ahead of force players in their position atm

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Mods: The naming of the Force players is in direct response to a request from a Force Poster: Delete if you wish, but that's my justification, please don't judge me harshly.

For starters, it's not a simple player yes or no, it's do they fit within contract structure:

Loosehead Prop: please give. Toby's gone, Cruze is ok as a backup, and Fereti still needs someone to learn from.

Hooker: Tessman is too old for a new club IMO. TPN has indicated he'd head overseas if the Force are gone yes? I'd maybe take Scoble, but behind both Hanson (at least for 2018, probably not beyond) and Uelese.

Tighthead: I'd take Ainsley ahead of either Weeks or Faulkner, but not Vui, he'd compromise Lomax's gametime (who could very well be lost to the darkness), and I think they're both gonna be fantastic players. 3 signed anyway so a moot point.

Lock: Coleman oh God yes. He'd partner Parling. I'd want to keep gambling on Jeffries getting fit though.

Blindside: Cottrell is too injury prone. RHP yes, but I see him as replacing one of Timani and Mafi off the Bench.

Openside: Hardwick is probably better than Fainga'a. Colby is MY captain though.

Number 8: Naisaranai (sp?) yes, but like RHP, I see him replacing one of Mafi and Timani

Scrum Half: Louwrens or Ruru are more than welcome to come down and replace Stirzaker, but Genia is Genia

Fly Half: Yes. Next.

Center: I really like Meakes. He'd take one spot, Hodge the other. Don't see us finding room for Rona.

Wing: Sefa and Koroibete. Both on Wallabies contracts. End of, from a purely political standpoint. Would Peni be happy to play bench? Please say yes.

Fullback: See Flyhalf.

Edit: 5 starters from my admittedly biased POV, 9 if you want to exclude Genia, Colby, Parling, and magically create room in the Squad for Ainsley.

 

[Shiggins]

Safa and Koroibete would retain the wing spots, Hodge would retain inside center. Fainga'a, Mafi and Timani would hold the back row. Add the likes of Genia and Parling for experience.

I would start Lowrance and ruru over genia on current form.

Naisarani and Hardwick? Have to start both of them for sure. Even cotrell. That's one area that really they should go to another team though. Because there would be way to much back row tallent at the rebels. I do like Mafi a lot. Timani is a big unit and not bad at all. Fainga'a has lots of heart but not the same skill level as those mentioned.

Bill Meaks, Curtis rona and penny all should be starting and even Verity amm needs to be there abouts. That kids a future wallabie no doubt

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[Highlander35]

I would start Lowrance and ruru over genia on current form.

Naisarani and Hardwick? Have to start both of them for sure. Even cotrell. That's one area that really they should go to another team though. Because there would be way to much back row tallent at the rebels. I do like Mafi a lot. Timani is a big unit and not bad at all. Fainga'a has lots of heart but not the same skill level as those mentioned.

Bill Meaks, Curtis rona and penny all should be starting and even Verity amm needs to be there abouts. That kids a future wallabie no doubt

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You see, Shigs, I agree with basically everything you said, but there's more to consider than, this individual is better than this individual.

Between Wallabies contracts, Super Contracts already signed, and behind the scenes manuevering it's not as simple as slam the Best 20-23 Force Players together with the best 12-15 Rebels players and bang Championship winning squad (which admittedly, I think is not too far from not being an exaggeration).

 

[joeyjohnz]

If the appeal to arbitration fails am I right to assume that WA Rugby still have the option to sue / take the ARU to court over it's obvious misleading / lying about the consequences of the Sale of the Force's IP?

From an outside perspective; the ARU definitely did not disclose their intentions and almost definitely lied about such considering they've gone to arbitration about a few lines on a contract regarding a guarantee to be a part of Super Rugby until 2020.

 

[Braveheart81]

To the fans saying we need to stick with the ARU, but they need to improve.

How do you see an improving ARU playing out? They are protected through the self preserving NSW-Qld-ARU self interest. To me they are driving pro-rugby down the pan. I see no evidence of interest or ability in the grass roots. A cut to 3 pro teams seems inevitable, as is a growing subservience to NZ, SA, SANZAR, whether or not this suits Australia.

I feel it is entirely appropriate to protest. My bailing on the ARU is not me bailing on pro rugby, it is a response to the ARU failing non-pro rugby and showing no capability other than the destructive in pro-rugby.

It seems to me ridiculous to blame the fans who have had enough. ARU is culpable imo.

Of course the ARU are culpable but I don't really think you can send the ARU broke without also destroying the four remaining Super Rugby sides and every state union in the country.

The financials are quite closely linked and rely on the funding dribbling down.

Now hopefully we see a big renewal of the ARU board after this year and we have an executive who are more strongly driven to govern the game for the good of the whole country. I don't really see an outcome where the ARU collapses that doesn't also trigger the collapse of some or all of the state unions.

 

[I like to watch]

A big renewal of the ARU board?

If you keep fishing in the same pond, you keep catching the same species of fish.

For real change, you need to change more than a few faces on the board.

How you engineer drastic changes without an Armageddon type scenario is the $64,000 question.

 

[Boomer]

Of course the ARU are culpable but I don't really think you can send the ARU broke without also destroying the four remaining Super Rugby sides and every state union in the country.

I don't really see an outcome where the ARU collapses that doesn't also trigger the collapse of some or all of the state unions.

Cool.

Radical renewal - solves Queensland's issues and gets rid of the elbow patches in Sydney and the Shite Shield squealers.

Play with the bull - risk getting the horns.

 

[Shiggins]

Mods: The naming of the Force players is in direct response to a request from a Force Poster: Delete if you wish, but that's my justification, please don't judge me harshly.

For starters, it's not a simple player yes or no, it's do they fit within contract structure:

Loosehead Prop: please give. Toby's gone, Cruze is ok as a backup, and Fereti still needs someone to learn from.

Hooker: Tessman is too old for a new club IMO. TPN has indicated he'd head overseas if the Force are gone yes? I'd maybe take Scoble, but behind both Hanson (at least for 2018, probably not beyond) and Uelese.

Tighthead: I'd take Ainsley ahead of either Weeks or Faulkner, but not Vui, he'd compromise Lomax's gametime (who could very well be lost to the darkness), and I think they're both gonna be fantastic players. 3 signed anyway so a moot point.

Lock: Coleman oh God yes. He'd partner Parling. I'd want to keep gambling on Jeffries getting fit though.

Blindside: Cottrell is too injury prone. RHP yes, but I see him as replacing one of Timani and Mafi off the Bench.

Openside: Hardwick is probably better than Fainga'a. Colby is MY captain though.

Number 8: Naisaranai (sp?) yes, but like RHP, I see him replacing one of Mafi and Timani

Scrum Half: Louwrens or Ruru are more than welcome to come down and replace Stirzaker, but Genia is Genia

Fly Half: Yes. Next.

Center: I really like Meakes. He'd take one spot, Hodge the other. Don't see us finding room for Rona.

Wing: Sefa and Koroibete. Both on Wallabies contracts. End of, from a purely political standpoint. Would Peni be happy to play bench? Please say yes.

Fullback: See Flyhalf.

Edit: 5 starters from my admittedly biased POV, 9 if you want to exclude Genia, Colby, Parling, and magically create room in the Squad for Ainsley.

The biggest problem with the rebels players are that you are picking them on what they can be and not how they have been playing. Like Hansen. I would pick Scoble at hooker Infront of Hansen. Hansen when he was backup at the reds was great but has declined big time.

Sack parking 100 percent for the good of Aus rugby. We have Matt Philip, RHP (also plays 6) and Richey arnlold plus a couple back ups that all are good and should be paying for the good of Aus rugby.

RHP could come in as u said which frees up the locks a bit with so many names there. Cotrell is injury prone but if he was in the squad and fit he would be very hard to pick against. Any coach will struggle not to put him in there.

Hardwick stands out at 7 and has to start

Naisarani at 8

I would probably pick Mafi Hardwick and nasarni to be honest. That's one hell of a handy back row. Timani would start ahead of naisarani depending on opposition but they would all get similar Gametime.

Half back I would pick Lowrance and ruru over genia on form. I would see genia getting back into form though and starting. He just isn't there atm. Should give him benifit of doubt though I guess.

Fly half LOL

meaks starting with Hodge and Rona fighting for the other spot. Hodge could do with some good competition to push his form

Wing I honestly think verety Amm needs to be playing as much as possible. He is a future wallaby. Sefa and koroibete are good. It's hard to pick against them but they have strugled because of the rebels poor team form. Penny deserves something.

DHP plays wherever he wants in the back 3

I think this shows that a good pre season would be needed to iron out who impresses.

So

Ainsley
Coleman
Philip
RHP
Naisarani
Hardwick
Lowrance
Lance
Meaks
DHP

These are all musts with a couple that could be on the bench , RHP to cover lock and blinsdie. Lowrance reserve halfback if genia guys form. The rest start.

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[Braveheart81]

How you engineer drastic changes without an Armageddon type scenario is the $64,000 question.

I have no idea. Realistically I'm not sure it is possible and think it has to be reasonably gradual.

Radical renewal - solves Queensland's issues and gets rid of the elbow patches in Sydney and the Shite Shield squealers.

Play with the bull - risk getting the horns.

I don't know whether any renewal would be radical. I think it would be incredibly slow.

I also don't know that a drastically different power base would be what would emerge. If anything, the traditional "elbow patches" would be the only groups that would survive because they've done it before and are less reliant on external input.

 

[Shiggins]

You see, Shigs, I agree with basically everything you said, but there's more to consider than, this individual is better than this individual.

Between Wallabies contracts, Super Contracts already signed, and behind the scenes manuevering it's not as simple as slam the Best 20-23 Force Players together with the best 12-15 Rebels players and bang Championship winning squad (which admittedly, I think is not too far from not being an exaggeration).

Yeh as I said a pre season would be needed.

Let's leave it now and see how this case goes. I just feel it's now a lost cause and in trying to deal with the force being no longer.

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[Highlander35]

Yeh as I said a pre season would be needed.

Let's leave it now and see how this case goes. I just feel it's now a lost cause and in trying to deal with the force being no longer.

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I think it is best to leave it yes. We'll not convince each other of anything, and stopping before civility breaks down, is a good thing.

I wish, and continue to wish the Force the best of luck in their fight, as long as it doesn't come at the expense of my blokes.

 

[stoff]

if it is a very close decision, as I assume it was?, individual judge interpretation could be very different? therefore not obvious?
Do you think it was a very close decision?

I haven't seen the decision so can't say. I would assume there was sound rationale behind the decision of the arbitrator. The facts are no longer up for dispute. If the judge has a different opinion to the arbitrator that would make it more likely to be considered obvious.


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[half]

My limited understanding is if you use an arbitrator you essentially agree on the issue be arbitrated that there will being no court case as both sides accept the decision. In theory it is far quicker and less costly than the courts.

Meaning the Force need to come up with new grounds or find a error of law applied by the arbitrator as his decision has been accepted by both parties going into arbitration.

 

[Killer]

I haven't seen the decision so can't say. I would assume there was sound rationale behind the decision of the arbitrator. The facts are no longer up for dispute. If the judge has a different opinion to the arbitrator that would make it more likely to be considered obvious.


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Thanks to you guys for your opinions.
As much as we are up against it a bit due to the arbitrators initial decision. IMO though biased, if it was a close call it would not take much to make it a line ball decision and therefore room for a decision to hear the appeal.
From there anything can happen, hopefully our team has learnt from the last battle and maybe with new information, facts could still be in dispute.
I assume new info can be introduced?
Maybe I'm clutching at straws but in my experience just holding on by your fingertips can lead to good things, not always but.......

 

[Killer]

My limited understanding is if you use an arbitrator you essentially agree on the issue be arbitrated that there will being no court case as both sides accept the decision. In theory it is far quicker and less costly than the courts.

Meaning the Force need to come up with new grounds or find a error of law applied by the arbitrator as his decision has been accepted by both parties going into arbitration.

no I think if there is an agreement between the parties to allow appeal, you can do within the parameters.