Where to for Super Rugby?

[eastman]

And I'm saying there's approx 120 guys with a Super Rugby contract & zero chance of ever being an AB. Nothing to stop your clubs signing them but they don't. Why is that? IMO it's because they don't offer a significant enough upgrade on what's already available over there to be worth signing. If NZR rescinded the "must play in NZ to play for NZ" policy tomorrow you might get a few guys at the top end of the pay scale leaving but they'd be going to Japan, UK/ Ireland, or France not Australia.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/community/threads/where-to-for-super-rugby.17402/page-744

See post # 14861.

Obviously the reason these guys don't get signed is because there is a cap on foreign players.....

I'm suggesting that the All Black/ Wallabies/ Pacific Islander eligibility is relaxed for this competition only- not a universal basis. As I've stated before, good luck to NZ rugby trying to retain their top players with only a domestic competition, and the NZ market to support it (have a look at GDP relevant to other nations).

 

[Quick Hands]

If RA does actually collapse like some are suggesting, would that then release all the players to take up contracts elsewhere, which for the safety of their livelihoods I imagine plenty would? I not sure we would not be in pretty dire straits for a few years.

The top tier of players already have RA permission to take up contracts elsewhere to supplement their income.

As WOB points out re journeymen NZ super players, where are the mid to bottom level or talent going to go? I don't think European clubs are going to rush to sign players who are at best equal with local players. Some might get some sort of deal, particularly if they have a EU or UK passport entitlement, but I'd question whether 120 or so Australian players would be able to find contracts at NH clubs.

 

[eastman]

True RN, and what everyone is forgetting without a reasonably successful Wallaby side Aus rugby will struggle, and you certainly not going to get that witha 70% kiwi representation in Super sides. As WOB has pointed out, as I have time and again, there is nothing to stop the players from coming over here and playing except being picked for ABs, and the majority of NZ rugby players are not going to be an AB. We have seen Daniel Braid and Adam Thompson play for the Reds when their AB days were over, and even those 2 you had a feeling that it was because maybe their days of being starters in NZ super was over, both were successful, but it reinforces what we saying, there has to be something to attract players over here.

There is a restriction on non-eligible players in Australian teams- Is this not well known?

 

[eastman]

Got any plan to truck in some spectators? I still remember the total embarrassment of the Western Sydney Rams playing in front of a couple of hundred or so family and friends. Admittedly the ground is a lot better now. But...


IMHO the best place to start would be on boutique grounds close to existing rugby heartlands, with games played in the afternoons. That would be the best chance of getting crowds. Free beer would help.

I'm talking about a fully- fledged professional outfit, not a team made up from players from the weakest clubs in semi-amateur competition. A team to compete against the 'Eastern' Waratahs, that has elite players (Kurtley Beale?) and some genuine RugbyAU support behind it.
Look you generally seem quite reasonable and pragmatic but you might quite surprised by the limited fan base and popularity of Eastwood.

 

[Adam84]

For a few years now I have been pushing for a privately own and run league based off USA franchise models. This is still our best option.

I think the US franchise model is a pretty bad comparison when drawing parallels to what could occur in Australia, there's a completely different level of wealth and attitude to owning sporting teams in the US when compared to Australia, not to mention much more favourable tax incentives in the US.

If you were going to use any competition as an example of using private investment to re-build a brand, then it has to be what Larry Kestelman did with the NBL. However, like the US Rugby Comp the NBL has leveraged US Investors to inject $millions through the NBA connections, and more specifically they target former NBA players to come in as owner-operators. There aren't too many former rugby players sitting on fortunes of $100-200million who are willing to spend it on a sporting team though.

 

[Dan54]

There is a restriction on non-eligible players in Australian teams- Is this not well known?

Yes it is pretty well know by most rugby people, or I would assume it is.

 

[Dan54]

The top tier of players already have RA permission to take up contracts elsewhere to supplement their income.

As WOB points out re journeymen NZ super players, where are the mid to bottom level or talent going to go? I don't think European clubs are going to rush to sign players who are at best equal with local players. Some might get some sort of deal, particularly if they have a EU or UK passport entitlement, but I'd question whether 120 or so Australian players would be able to find contracts at NH clubs.

No but I was thinking if enough of top 20-30 went to NH/Japan it would not be best.

 

[Quick Hands]

No but I was thinking if enough of top 20-30 went to NH/Japan it would not be best.

I think they are going to go anyway. It's difficult to see any way RA will be able to pay them anything like what they can earn in those places.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I think the US franchise model is a pretty bad comparison when drawing parallels to what could occur in Australia, there's a completely different level of wealth and attitude to owning sporting teams in the US when compared to Australia, not to mention much more favourable tax incentives in the US.

If you were going to use any competition as an example of using private investment to re-build a brand, then it has to be what Larry Kestelman did with the NBL. However, like the US Rugby Comp the NBL has leveraged US Investors to inject $millions through the NBA connections, and more specifically they target former NBA players to come in as owner-operators. There aren't too many former rugby players sitting on fortunes of $100-200million who are willing to spend it on a sporting team though.

I agree with challenges of finding private investors but if attractive model they can see growth (read not super rugby) they will come - mlr investors attracted by growth prospects and competition model

 

[eastman]

I agree with challenges of finding private investors but if attractive model they can see growth (read not super rugby) they will come - mlr investors attracted by growth prospects and competition model

Adam just spelt out why the MLR model is not a relevant comparison in an Australian context. As an aside, have you ever looked at the ownership of MLR teams (who they are) or their cost models?

 

[RedsHappy]

I think they are going to go anyway. It's difficult to see any way RA will be able to pay them anything like what they can earn in those places.

I think that’s quickly emerging as indisputable. The only exception will be players that simply must or want to stay in Australia for family or similar reasons, but there’ll only be a few of those.

All the indications are that Aust pro rugby’s revenue line in 2021 will irrevocably collapse.

People often forget as well: as gradually more money is made and pumped into the Nth Hem game, as has been occurring, over time their players will get better and better. Aust’s pro players have been gradually getting worse and worse in terms of, for example, core skills as investment and money flow in this country have gone into far too many erroneous places and failed strategies - such as an unsustainable national expansion - that built quantity at the expense of quality. Now the piper is being paid, big time.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Adam just spelt out why the MLR model is not a relevant comparison in an Australian context. As an aside, have you ever looked at the ownership of MLR teams (who they are) or their cost models?

Yeh I have but probably not got the detail in printed in my head like WCR...to me good example of getting broadcasters on board with mix of outside and other rugby investors with licence fee model and semi pro model (most players earn b/w $25k to $70k for top earners for short competition) so keeps costs well in check whilst trying to grow with crowds of around 3-4k

Lot to be learned from MLR imo which could be replicated in broader Asia pacific market

 

[RedsHappy]

No but I was thinking if enough of top 20-30 went to NH/Japan it would not be best.

Yeah but remember - the vast $s handed to the Folaus and Hoopers.....what if Australia’s available elite $s were spent instead supporting the next generation of ‘good’ players, more of them by number and the ones that want to be coached vs such players as the aforementioned whose skills have not improved in many years, and on much lower pro $ salary on average.

Might that be a superior way of developing longer term code stability and perhaps too, viability. And a totally different model and way of thinking for pro rugby’s future here.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I think the word 'club' can be more broadly defined than just amateur suburban clubs with multiple grades and juniors etc. The current super rugby sides are basically the rugby equivalent of the NRL and AFL clubs, so no reason they couldn't be the basis of a domestic club competition.

For example, you could have a Premiership division made up of 8 teams - the 4 Super Rugby sides plus the Force and 3 others, and then a 2nd National Championship division primarily made up of current Sydney and Brisbane premier clubs (those with the means and ambition to step up to semi-pro and potentially professional status), with promotion and relegation between the tiers. Beneath that you'd have the city or state based leagues and there could be some possibility of promotion and relegation between the regional level and national championship level.

Omar, my first thought was that the gulf between the Super teams and any others in the main comp, and then also to the second tier, would be too great to be successful.

However, if we are able to reconcile to the top players all going overseas because the money here wouldn't be sufficient then at least the top tier just might work. Would you rather it be kept wholly domestic, with teams added from Western Sydney, Adelaide and the like? Or would you see a couple of PI teams operating probably out of Australia in the main?

 

[eastman]

4-5 Australian based professional teams (with a drastically reduced cost base/ structure, open eligibility for pacific players) to play against NZ counterparts: Eastern Waratahs, Queensland Reds, Southern Brumbies, West Sydney X & Western Force.

You can then run an enhanced city/ state- based competition, using much of the existing structures.

 

[wamberal]

I think that’s quickly emerging as indisputable. The only exception will be players that simply must or want to stay in Australia for family or similar reasons, but there’ll only be a few of those.

Now the piper is being paid, big time.

How does the bunch of very capable young players, you know, the ones who almost won the Under 20s World Cup last year, not to mention the Australian Schoolboys who are also pretty successful, fit into this piper paying stuff?


Folau was paid a lot of money. Without going into the horrors of his demise, let us bear in mind that for quite a few years he was the face of the game here in Australia, everywhere you looked you saw his face. That is worth money, old chap. Big money.


Hooper is a different ball of wax. However, are you certain that, put into the situation of deciding whether to keep him or not in the lead up to the World Cup, you would have let him go?

 

[Quick Hands]

Folau was paid a lot of money. Without going into the horrors of his demise, let us bear in mind that for quite a few years he was the face of the game here in Australia, everywhere you looked you saw his face. That is worth money, old chap. Big money.

Yet, despite all of this and years of being coached in the elite Australian rugby system he couldn't kick a ball to save his life. An he was playing fullback,a position where the ability to kick out of trouble has been seen as a necessary skill ever since the game began.

 

[Quick Hands]

People often forget as well: as gradually more money is made and pumped into the Nth Hem game, as has been occurring, over time their players will get better and better. Aust’s pro players have been gradually getting worse and worse in terms of, for example, core skills as investment and money flow in this country have gone into far too many erroneous places and failed strategies - such as an unsustainable national expansion - that built quantity at the expense of quality. Now the piper is being paid, big time.

It's worth remembering that Kurtley Beale came back from a stint in NH with an improved game.

 

[eastman]

It's worth remembering that Kurtley Beale came back from a stint in NH with an improved game.

I’d argue that the improvement was more to do with the change of scenery and refreshed approach rather than any tangible additions to his skillset. Have we really seen anything different from Kurtley over the last two years...

 

[Silverado]

Yet, despite all of this and years of being coached in the elite Australian rugby system he couldn't kick a ball to save his life. An he was playing fullback,a position where the ability to kick out of trouble has been seen as a necessary skill ever since the game began.

You would think it a pretty important part of his game when he played AFL. I know that they worked on it extensivley but he never quite got it