Where to for Super Rugby?

[dru]

An interesting article from today's West Australian with some quotes from Andrew Forrest.
The financial backing of at least one Australian team appears sound.
How do the four Australian Super Rugby franchises prove financial viability without RA having income from a broadcast deal for 2021?

I humbly suggest, that the only franchise guaranteed a position in any comp that eventuates - is the Force. Things have changed.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Japan involvement in a Champions League style format was reported earlier this year;

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...n-to-keep-japan-involved-20200514-p54sz1.html

. so whilst, yes Japan (JRU) has been looking at doing their own thing I don't think no involvement with AU/NZ n' co has been off the table. Australia is also a more attractive market for Japanese companies than NZ so their might be some appetite for them to see this as an opportunity to be involved and create some extra value out of their existing investments.

I'm not sure about the politics but I got the impression the new League was very much about the JRU trying to untangle itself from the Corporations which currently run the Top League so I'm not sure what the dynamics and different views are. Perhaps someone closer to Japanese Rugby might have some insight.

NTT (Nippon Telegraph & Telephone Corporation) has made some large property purchases recently, perhaps they'd like to purchase an interest in a AU Rugby competition.

A lot of those corporate teams will form the spine of the new league. Just not under their old names like Panasonic or Suntory. It's exactly what occurred when Japan established the J-League. Take for example Tokyo Gas. Who are heavily suggested are going to enter a team. They did something similar when their soccer team went from being Tokyo Gas FC to Tokyo FC. So that's the glimmer of hope seeing as our franchises have been actively developing relationships with Top League teams for several years both in soft partnerships between the likes of the Rebels and Kinetsu and the Tahs playing games against Top League opponents during the June window.

And I would like to make it clear. I'd very much like to see some kind of Champions League structure with Japan. It's part of why I've always wanted a 10-12 team TT league to align with the new Japanese structure which will have roughly the same. And then there the ability to tap into the biggest market in Rugby.

I would love to be wrong. May be they'll see more value in a Champions Cup structure in the future. But I wouldn't be factoring them into my calculations until where much further down the path.

 

[Dan54]

In more pressing things is Super Au going to be able to finish with another cluster of Covid in Sydney? I seeing Bledisloe and everything going because of what's happening!

 

[dru]

The two Aus team thing, on further cogitation, is bigger than I had initially been thinking. Up front you'd think it means Reds and Waratahs - but both have little consistency at the level required. Also Brumbies are the most consistent plus the Force the only team fully financed. And it does nothing to aggregate talent quality.

To run two teams means taking the broader WB squad and splitting it in two, then settling on a home base x2. I'm guessing here the Perth would be one (finance) and the fight for the second would be bloody. Bloody enough that no state union would support it.

Kiwi's are biting off more than they can they can chew here, at least more than they have considered with any thoroughness. A proposal likely to upset Rebels, Brumbies, NSWRU, QRU, RA is simply going nowhere - other than presenting a common foe.

This could get interesting.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Really RN, how many times do WOB and I have to tell you that NZ Hurld is not and has never been a realiable scource!! I take no more notice of that being gospel than I do of anything written by Georgina Robinson etc in SMH. Even the Hurld in it's write up says it is my understanding?? Thats noy fact man, that's opinion!

Gregor Paul's latest contribution to a measured & constructive debate was titled "Brave move finally busts Australian rugby myth". It's paywalled so I won't post the link but I'm sure you'll get the gist of where they're going with that (the actual article is headed "Common sense to break away from Sanzaar for Super Rugby's future" if you take the bait).

 

[Quick Hands]

not sure why you think says that NZ are running it,

Because they are they ones calling for EOI's - that's what people running things do.

. I repeat show me other options that have been put forward!

If by that you mean that RA haven't been able to put any coherent plan forward - we're in furious agreement.

 

[Dan54]

Because they are they ones calling for EOI's - that's what people running things do.

No that's what people setting something up, so they got something underway!
Quote from Mark Robinson, and note what it says about owning and running it, or do you think NZ and Aus should just say to someone 'we want a comp, come and set it up and run it huh?' “The look and shape and feel of how this competition may be owned or run is still to be determined and the way it connects to Sanzaar is yet to be determined.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Um so we were all happy for the Saffa teams to be thrown out? I not sure I saw any posts thinking SA should get legal advice!!! I not sure what I like or don't like here but weren't we hearing whispers about 2 months ago of a comp from NZ with Force part pf it and a PI team? I will still wait to hear what RA's proposal for a comp is!

Hey, Dan, SANZAAR is almost extinct, and will be if NZRU pull out to make their own competition. No way have the SA sides been thrown out. The comp they were part of will just not exist any more, and I might add, it will be at the initiative of the NZRU, not RA. I said before and I'll repeat - there is no way RA can allow NZRU to decide which teams from here will form part of whatever comp gets up, if any. It must be 5 and 5, or 6 and 6, in a competition jointly run by the two equal partners or it will not survive. Actually, I would hope it wouldn't even get off the ground if it didn't meet those criteria.

 

[Dan54]

If by that you mean that RA haven't been able to put any coherent plan forward - we're in furious agreement.

To be fair to RA, don't they have to resign all their players at end of September before they can come up with much? Isn't that when they all have to agree on new pay deals?

 

[Rebels3]

Both parties have to negotiate a new deal. The one NZ signed earlier is no longer valid because it’s for a competition that doesn’t exist anymore, maybe they will get the same amount, maybe slightly less but costs mitigated with reduced travel. You just don’t hear about it in the media because there is little doubt a deal won’t be reached.

 

[molman]

A lot of those corporate teams will form the spine of the new league. Just not under their old names like Panasonic or Suntory. It's exactly what occurred when Japan established the J-League. Take for example Tokyo Gas. Who are heavily suggested are going to enter a team. They did something similar when their soccer team went from being Tokyo Gas FC to Tokyo FC. So that's the glimmer of hope seeing as our franchises have been actively developing relationships with Top League teams for several years both in soft partnerships between the likes of the Rebels and Kinetsu and the Tahs playing games against Top League opponents during the June window.

And I would like to make it clear. I'd very much like to see some kind of Champions League structure with Japan. It's part of why I've always wanted a 10-12 team TT league to align with the new Japanese structure which will have roughly the same. And then there the ability to tap into the biggest market in Rugby.

I would love to be wrong. May be they'll see more value in a Champions Cup structure in the future. But I wouldn't be factoring them into my calculations until where much further down the path.

Yes, I'm aware of what they are trying to achieve, the tender process for teams to enter etc.., I just didn't know what the politics of it all was. Was hoping someone might have some local perspective from Japan as to how the various entities and stakeholders actually view each other. Is all the Top League teams just rolling into this new league done and dusted or are the machinations around what people want etc..

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Yes, I'm aware of what they are trying to achieve, the tender process for teams to enter etc.., I just didn't know what the politics of it all was. Was hoping someone might have some local perspective from Japan as to how the various entities and stakeholders actually view each other. Is all the Top League teams just rolling into this new league done and dusted or are the machinations around what people want etc..

Each team needs to adopt a region in their naming, location etc. and must play out of a stadium that holds a minimum of 15k. They've had 24 confirmed bids with a few more to come. Looks like they'll likely end up with 3 divisions of 10 teams each. Pretty much all of the bids come from corporate teams across the top two or so divisions of the current structure. Most actually plan on transitioning to full professionalism for the upcoming season in preparation for the new league.

 

[molman]

I actually think all Aus teams will play if they can afford it, though I still think Twiggy will be buying some Rebels back. All NZR says that all teams have to add something to the comp, I gather if RA guarantees the money , then that would be a huge step in right direction, whatever comp is set up can't afford to have a Force situation where they have to be cut because RA can't afford to support them. I think if private equity money goes in would also be good.

What is the money you speak of? SANZAAR get a share of what they bring to collective, NZ obviously would get a lot more as a percentage due to their deal. A two party TT comp could easily continue with the same arrangement. There is no money to bring per-say unless it is NZ wanting a very different arrangement which is the point which is at the crux of all this, it's a change in relationship, with self-interest at the core of it. This is all not a question of what NZR can loose, because I doubt they would loose anything, but rather a question of what they can gain, and that as I said is what leaves a bad taste, leveraging the circumstances at this point at this time doesn't paint NZR and the NZ Rugby community in a particularly good light.


As a business approach, it is undoubtably the smart play to wrest more control. I applaud them on that front.

 

[molman]

Each team needs to adopt a region in their naming, location etc. and must play out of a stadium that holds a minimum of 15k. They've had 24 confirmed bids with a few more to come. Looks like they'll likely end up with 3 divisions of 10 teams each. Pretty much all of the bids come from corporate teams across the top two or so divisions of the current structure. Most actually plan on transitioning to full professionalism for the upcoming season in preparation for the new league.

Yes, aware of most of that too... including I believe that 1/2 those 24 bids being from Tokyo?


So what I'm hearing is that as you understand it, it's pretty much a done thing, everyone is happy with the new comp and now it's just a case of seeing who's definitely in or out?

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Yes, aware of most of that too. including I believe that 1/2 those 24 bids being from Tokyo I believe?


So what I'm hearing is that as you understand it, it's pretty much a done thing, everyone is happy with the new comp and now it's just a case of seeing who's definitely in or out?

Yep. Officially launching in 2022. The Wild Knights have even announced the development of a really nice training base right next door to Kumagaya Stadium.

 

[Brumby Runner]

C,mon WOB it easier to say that NZR are going own a comp and make Aus do this or that Basically they have said they want to see a comp set up of 8-10 teams, all teams have to be financially sustainable and bring something to the table to help sell it to broadcasters, and see who wants to buy it! Oh and a comp without SA or Argos in it, but based around NZ-Aus and Pacific rim, bugger me if it not something I thought most of these posters wanted anyway?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby...-to-south-africa-in-historic-super-rugby-move

Bugger me Dan you are an obstinate SOB. Robinson's statements to date clearly indicate the competition will have all five NZ franchises in it, and he is disparaging of Aus rugby by saying there should be only 2 or 3 sides from here. Looks a lot to me like he thinks it's his comp and he will say who gets to play and who has to stay at home. Even the comment about still deciding on ownership can be read to mean ownership of the teams, not the competition.

I'm sure many, or most, fans here would be more inclined to view a TT favourably if it was clearly a joint exercise run by two equal partners. There has been nothing yet in any announcements to indicate that is the case. Suggest you get off your high horse and acknowledge that any controlling influence by NZRU over Aus teams' inclusion or exclusion in a TT is fundamentally wrong and will end in bitternmess. If that's not what is intended, then perhaps Robinson needs to come out and say that. His words on the subject so far do nothing to allay Aus fans' concerns.

 

[Dan54]

Hey, Dan, SANZAAR is almost extinct, and will be if NZRU pull out to make their own competition. No way have the SA sides been thrown out. The comp they were part of will just not exist any more, and I might add, it will be at the initiative of the NZRU, not RA. I said before and I'll repeat - there is no way RA can allow NZRU to decide which teams from here will form part of whatever comp gets up, if any. It must be 5 and 5, or 6 and 6, in a competition jointly run by the two equal partners or it will not survive. Actually, I would hope it wouldn't even get off the ground if it didn't meet those criteria.

I not arguing that BR, just replying to a post that suggested RA take NZR to court if they don't let them have 5 teams in comp, wasn't suggesting anything else. Do you really see Australia being able to afford to pay 5-6 teams in rugby? Obviously they not as broke as I thought, and I would be ok with it. I also repeat NZ probably won't decide who is in any comp, but first RA has to have a comp for anyone to join!!

 

[Dan54]

What is the money you speak of? SANZAAR get a share of what they bring to collective, NZ obviously would get a lot more as a percentage due to their deal. A two party TT comp could easily continue with the same arrangement. There is no money to bring per-say unless it is NZ wanting a very different arrangement which is the point which is at the crux of all this, it's a change in relationship, with self-interest at the core of it. This is all not a question of what NZR can loose, because I doubt they would loose anything, but rather a question of what they can gain, and that as I said is what leaves a bad taste, leveraging the circumstances at this point at this time doesn't paint NZR and the NZ Rugby community in a particularly good light.


As a business approach, it is undoubtably the smart play to wrest more control. I applaud them on that front.

NO SANZAAR got a share but everu country had their own TV deal didn't they? Isn't tha's why Force were cut because they cost RA too much supposedly, and why major shareholder of Rebels sell back them to RA for $1 or something?
And you say it doesn't paint NZR in a good light? Because they have actually suggested a comp while RA just sit here and wait to react? I keep asking do you think RA look particularly good, or just look like a union waiting for someone else to do everything and they just seem to be sitting there and demanding more? I not sure who looks bad and who look like bludgers at moment!!

 

[hoggy]

Yep. Officially launching in 2022. The Wild Knights have even announced the development of a really nice training base right next door to Kumagaya Stadium.

This could be a game changer in many ways with 2-3 Divisions and possibly a growing MLR league in America as well.

The point being both NZ & Aus may struggle to hold onto those lower level 2nd tier players if all of a sudden you have 15/25 professional rugby clubs paying competitive wages and looking for players.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

This could be a game changer in many ways with 2-3 Divisions and possibly a growing MLR league in America as well.

The point being both NZ & Aus may struggle to hold onto those lower level 2nd tier players if all of a sudden you have 15/25 professional rugby clubs paying competitive wages and looking for players.

We could have a hard time holding onto our 1st tier talent if they pay what they're suggesting for talent. Meaning we really need to get things sorted and quick. The landscape is changing. More options are emerging. MLR in the US will grow to 16 teams in the next few seasons. And there's a push for them to raise their salary cap with the influx of new capital via ownership group investment.

Hell, Spain has been signing Argentina XV players recently. The odd Jaguares player as well. Which is another league looking to transition to full professionalism.