Where to for Super Rugby?

[Moono75]

You understand that one way or another, SANZAAR and the ARU were going to cut a team in Oz. With or without Mr Twiggy.

The Force were the only team that could be cut legally. All other Oz teams were legally protected by their licence.

You need to stop thinking that this was a case of the ARU picking the Force to spite Twiggy. Twiggy's money made no difference.

But, people seem to be stuck in this circular argument, that the Force were a better proposition than the Rebels. Yep, they probably were, but where was their licence again? Oh, yes, that's right. In the ARU's pocket.

Getting all angry at Clyne for carrying out the job set for him by SANZAAR and agreed by the ARU is a bit silly. By all means challenge the process, but not the ending; that was a foregone conclusion.

Mate you just don't get it do you.

In case you haven't read the previous info. The Force only sold the licence to the ARU because the ARU spun their bullshit about wanting to eventually centralise all team licences through the ARU. This was a test case which would then be sold to the other 4 teams as the way to go.

The Force preference was to get a loan from the ARU like all the other teams had in the past and pay it back. The point of the Alliance Agreement between the Force and ARU was to put in place some guarantees for the future whilst the ARU held the licence. The Force should and wanted to buy the licence back and were declined.

The whole approach by the ARU to have the Force sell their licence rather than just providing them a loan just reeks of a premeditated plan to get rid of the Force. Why instead of pumping millions of dollars into the Rebels with loans weren't they offered the same deal. They were in financial problems way before the Force.

 

[Killer]

You understand that one way or another, SANZAAR and the ARU were going to cut a team in Oz. With or without Mr Twiggy.

The Force were the only team that could be cut legally. All other Oz teams were legally protected by their licence.

You need to stop thinking that this was a case of the ARU picking the Force to spite Twiggy. Twiggy's money made no difference.

But, people seem to be stuck in this circular argument, that the Force were a better proposition than the Rebels. Yep, they probably were, but where was their licence again? Oh, yes, that's right. In the ARU's pocket.

Getting all angry at Clyne for carrying out the job set for him by SANZAAR and agreed by the ARU is a bit silly. By all means challenge the process, but not the ending; that was a foregone conclusion.

But Clarke and Day on their visit to Perth stated that it would cost 5.7m to buy Cox's licence.
It was available but they didn't take up the option. I suggest this was because of Clarke and Clyne's contacts with Melb.
You simply survived because you were looked after by them. Not because you were so clever.
Good luck to you for that but don't confuse their treachery with your being clever. You were not safe just protected.

 

[andrewM]

Something to fuel more conversation

https://thewest.com.au/sport/rugby-union/western-force-players-coach-vow-
not-to-sign-with-melbourne-rebels-ng-b88591720z
Western Force players and coaches may not be the easy pickings Melbourne Rebels are hoping to boost their depleted Super Rugby squad with for next season.
The Rebels are targeting up to 15 players and a number of staff, including coach Dave Wessels, who are likely to be on the market after RugbyWA lost its legal battle to keep the Force alive.
However, there are a growing number of players who have vowed not to play for the rival Super Rugby team that was favoured by the ARU in the culling process.
Some players are looking overseas or at other Super Rugby clubs while others are considering staying in Perth to join mining magnate Andrew Forrest's planned rebel Indo-Pacific tournament.
It is understood Wessels would not be happy with a move to Melbourne.
There has already been interest in the breakaway competition from Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore and the Pacific Islands while management of Auckland's Eden Park stadium have expressed interest in staging games.
The concept is in its early stages and a time slot has to be finalised but depending on the countries involved it could replace the current Asia Rugby Championship.

The players have been left without a rugby home.Picture: Nic Ellis/The West Australian​

Rugby Union Players' Association chief executive Ross Xenos said: "Speaking to the players on a private and confidential basis, I know that some of them have expressed an interest in that competition.
"It's not necessarily a pipe dream. It's something that some of the players would support. This is a brave new world. There's a bit of risk-reward in that."
Meanwhile RugbyWA chairman Tony Howarth has hit out at ARU claims that its bid to keep the Force in Super Rugby was an inferior package to the Melbourne Rebels.
ARU chairman Cameron Clyne claimed RugbyWA had been asked its best and final offer on August 2 before the governing body decided to cut the Force or Rebels.
"At that point in time, it was an inferior package to what Victoria put through," Clyne said.
He questioned why RugbyWA didn't ask Force financial backer and mining magnate Forrest for help earlier, saying there may have been a "far different outcome".
Howarth said on August 4 RugbyWA sent a letter saying they were financially sound with $2 million at hand.
They were confident at least a further $3 million would be raised through the ‘Own The Force’ campaign with the help of Forrest’s funding.
"Mr Clyne indicates that the ARU was and continued to be in dialogue with RugbyWA," Howarth said.
"This misrepresents the position in that the majority of dialogue was initiated by the ARU's lawyers.
"We understand that Andrew Forrest sought to meet with the ARU on numerous occasions both before and after August 4.
"These meetings were declined by the ARU Chairman with the only meeting occurring in Adelaide (on the) 22nd of August.
"Our view remains that since receiving legal advice in February the ARU Chairman had formed the view that the Western Force were the only team that could legally be removed from the competition.”

 

[half]

Wake me up when it's over

Very apt song title. The lyrics actually sit nicely with our position. BTW a great song, imaginary not bad either.

Enjoy. Stretch the mind and imagine TF rides the horse [Ok in the song its a girl but powerful] Take it further TF is the lead girl in this song, no offence to TF BTW watch the vid and you will understand. as an aside it has almost 1.4 billion views on this vid alone.

 

[half]

A point that made little sense....

You seem to suggest that the growth of the game internationally will be mutually exclusive to Australia. I don't think that will be the case at all. Australia currently is and will continue to be an important player for international tours and touring. The EOYTs remain a key part of international rugby. Australian players will remain in demand.

Yes there are a few structural problems but if there is to be growth (remains to be seen) Australia will be a part of it.

No read what I said.

I said those that say because rugby is so international, this will save rugby in Australia, and they seem to believe that the size of international rugby will save Australian rugby no matter how much the admin stuff it up.

I said as rugby expands internationally that Australia's importance to the rugby world will diminish.

We are not as important in an international sense that some seem to think.

What you don't get is if rugby takes off in China where I have posted previously it will, and say in Japan, and in some of the Russian states. Australia's influence and general importance to rugby will not be anywhere near as important as it has been in the past.

 

[Moono75]

No read what I said.

I said those that say because rugby is so international, this will save rugby in Australia, and they seem to believe that the size of international rugby will save Australian rugby no matter how much the admin stuff it up.

I said as rugby expands internationally that Australia's importance to the rugby world will diminish.

We are not as important in an international sense that some seem to think.

What you don't get is if rugby takes off in China where I have posted previously it will, and say in Japan, and in some of the Russian states. Australia's influence and general importance to rugby will not be anywhere near as important as it has been in the past.

Seems clear to me. It comes down to market size and dollars. If the game in China took off in years to come (many years) and they ended up becoming a power, their sheer economic might and potential audience numbers would mean we would all be marching to the beat of their drum.

 

[fatprop]

Seems clear to me. It comes down to market size and dollars. If the game in China took off in years to come (many years) and they ended up becoming a power, their sheer economic might and potential audience numbers would mean we would all be marching to the beat of their drum.

Same has been said about the US for years, it would take all Twiggy's money and half a dozen others for china to give a shit about 15s rugby. Just look at football in china, millions upon millions spent on has beens to provide "marques"and the thing still struggles

Tevez signed a 40 million dollar US deal, and his nickname in china "home sick boy"

 

[USARugger]

Same has been said about the US for years, it would take all Twiggy's money and half a dozen others for china to give a shit about 15s rugby. Just look at football in china, millions upon millions spent on has beens to provide "marques"and the thing still struggles

Tevez signed a 40 million dollar US deal, and his nickname in china "home sick boy"

Beat me to it..

China will be a rugby superpower around the time the USA "wakes up" to rugby. If anything, China are proof that pouring money in from the top down is anything but a path to sporting success - and that was with a far more approachable sport that caters much better to the average male body.

No nation without a very strong grassroots will ever be a rugby superpower. This will take decades at an absolute minimum to achieve, we're talking about multiple generations of players and even generational growth on the scale of a human lifetime.

 

[Derpus]

The only country that i can think of where it isn't deeply ingrained in the historical culture of the country who is currently half decent is Argentina.

 

[WaltBrisney]

The only country that i can think of where it isn't deeply ingrained in the historical culture of the country who is currently half decent is Argentina.

'deeply ingrained' like it is in Australia? I love the game but if we are honest with ourselves it is a niche sport in Australia. League, AFL and football all boast greater participation rates and there is very little exposure on FTA or in schools outside of private schools. Even in schools football is more popular hence Brisbane GPS changing their season structures so rugby and football are played in different terms.

Like I said, I am a passionate fan and want the sport to do well but it is not 'deeply ingrained' in our culture.

I would not be quick to write off USA rugby. Universities are offering scholarships which would suggest interest is starting to build and I know people involved in thriving clubs over there. It also has a growing presence in high schools, and not just private ones.

 

[Braveheart81]

What you don't get is if rugby takes off in China where I have posted previously it will, and say in Japan, and in some of the Russian states. Australia's influence and general importance to rugby will not be anywhere near as important as it has been in the past.

China taking an interest in various sports has generated more revenue for those sports outside China.

If at some point a substantial distance into the future China has such a dominant domestic rugby competition that other countries are struggling to stop their players from playing there then that is a bridge to cross when it arrives.

For a substantial amount of time leading up to that they would be a net contributor to the financial position of other countries as they became more interested in the sport.

I don't think there is any situation where countries that currently have little interest in rugby becoming more interested isn't a positive for the top tier nations.

 

[daz]

https://thewest.com.au/sport/rugby-union/western-force-players-coach-vow-
not-to-sign-with-melbourne-rebels-ng-b88591720z

Ah yes. Nick Taylor and his very entertaining pieces of fan-fiction.

Players "vow" not to play for the Rebels? Wessels "vows" not to coach the Rebels?

Twiggy-Ball "vows" to take huge chunks out of SANZAAR, The West Oz newspaper "vows" to be the best damn hyperbolic publication in the the friggin' universe dammit, and I "vow" to stop snacking on tim-tams after 8pm.

We'll see. Vows are cheap.

 

[BLR]

Ah yes. Nick Taylor and his very entertaining pieces of fan-fiction.

Players "vow" not to play for the Rebels? Wessels "vows" not to coach the Rebels?

Twiggy-Ball "vows" to take huge chunks out of SANZAAR, The West Oz newspaper "vows" to be the best damn hyperbolic publication in the the friggin' universe dammit, and I "vow" to stop snacking on tim-tams after 8pm.

We'll see. Vows are cheap.

Maybe vow to not be as antagonistic to anything that doesn't suit your pro-Rebel narrative?

 

[oztimmay]

Ah yes. Nick Taylor and his very entertaining pieces of fan-fiction.

Players "vow" not to play for the Rebels? Wessels "vows" not to coach the Rebels?

Twiggy-Ball "vows" to take huge chunks out of SANZAAR, The West Oz newspaper "vows" to be the best damn hyperbolic publication in the the friggin' universe dammit, and I "vow" to stop snacking on tim-tams after 8pm.

We'll see. Vows are cheap.

Not Wedding vows. I'm still on a payment plan for mine. Will pay off my Home mortgage before that one.

Besides, we are aware they a number of players have already signed a pre-commitment "agreement" with the Melbourne Rebels. From a legal perspective, it would seem like a conditional contract. THe key condition being, the WEstern force licence is discontinued.

It has been reported by a number of different news groups.

 

[Boof1050]

Daz it's pretty simple really we've been shit on by a bunch of corrupt people now and formally in the ARU. Mate you guys have been doled out 20 mill and done sweet fuck all with it but been kept in the comp by a conniving conman who is now back in with the Rebels. Why wouldn't it leave a sour taste. As I said previously you make your bed, lie in it! Mate realise this Rob Clarke is no good.

 

[daz]

Maybe vow to not be as antagonistic to anything that doesn't suit your pro-Rebel narrative?

Come on, I have been as sympathetic as anyone, especially given the ARU saw fit to make sure I thought I was in the same boat you you for the last 178 days.

But surely, surely, surely, you can see how idiotic reporting and hyperbolic nonsense just slowly pushes away those of us who want to be your allies?

 

[daz]

Daz it's pretty simple really we've been shit on by a bunch of corrupt people now and formally in the ARU. Mate you guys have been doled out 20 mill and done sweet fuck all with it but been kept in the comp by a conniving conman who is now back in with the Rebels. Why wouldn't it leave a sour taste. As I said previously you make your bed, lie in it! Mate realise this Rob Clarke is no good.

But again, that is your interpretation of events. I'm not saying the ARU have done much right, but two high court judges have sided with the ARU.

Not sure how many times I need to tell you this, but the Rebels financial position matters not a jot; We. Have. A. License.

Was the process flawed and biased against the Force? Almost certainly, given the Force were the path of least resistance.

Did the ARU corruptly and fraudulently shit on the Force and RugbyWA? I highly doubt it.

You are pissed, I get it, but maybe, just maybe, you need to vent at the Force board who left you so highly exposed.

 

[Leo86]

Recently you havent been acting quite as an ally, Yes the West along with all Newspapers publish bullshit. Havent seen you attacking them as equally as The West

 

[TOCC]

But surely, surely, surely, you can see how idiotic reporting and hyperbolic nonsense just slowly pushes away those of us who want to be your allies?

it was hardly an idiotic article, it struck a nerve with you because it said some players won't join the Rebels, which has been reported with many Force players stating they would first go overseas before joining another super rugby team.

If that reporting makes you an opposition of the Force issue, then it says more about you then it does the journalist.

 

[Boof1050]

But again, that is your interpretation of events. I'm not saying the ARU have done much right, but two high court judges have sided with the ARU.

Not sure how many times I need to tell you this, but the Rebels financial position matters not a jot; We. Have. A. License.

Was the process flawed and biased against the Force? Almost certainly, given the Force were the path of least resistance.

Did the ARU corruptly and fraudulently shit on the Force and RugbyWA? I highly doubt it.

You are pissed, I get it, but maybe, just maybe, you need to vent at the Force board who left you so highly exposed.

Yeah I'm pissed but I'm also an optimist and sports follower. I don't need to vent at our board because they were sold a dummy by a grubby piece of garbage. I can also hold my head high knowing my team didn't have to receive millions in hand outs as well. But I do know that super is dying at a rapid rate and I hope while Twiggy and his new comps ass points to the ground that the grubs that bought about this grubby process go down with it! Like I said Rob Clarke is no good. If you love your Rebels I suggest you start to get that nasty crap away from your franchise before you cease to exist with nothing to fall back on.