The Israel Folau saga
- Thread starter The torpedo
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The Honey Badger
Jim Lenehan (48)
Is that where Gagger got to. I wondered where he was.
He's not Izzy's lawyer. He was RUPA's representative on the judgement panel.
.
Athilnaur
Arch Winning (36)
Apologies, long post, but I hope it offers some insight to those among us who think Israel should be punished by RA into the views of the libertarians amongst us who see it as a freedom issue.
TL
R - Our society is what it is because those who went before us learnt the value of a free society and the rights of the individual.
It wasn't all that long ago it was the conservative side of town that expected political correctness, and hippies throughout the West were fighting for free speech, free opinions and free boobs (the burn the bra movement you turkeys out there!)
When I was a kid some boys actively bullied homosexuals and some men beat them up.
Imagine the courage it takes to speak up for homosexual rights when you are one if it is illegal. With people out there who believed you needed to be shouted down, or imprisoned or hurt.
Even now in some countries of the world, the public have no such rights to speak up for themselves or others. You go against the prevailing view of 'right' at your deepest peril. We saw it recently in Brunei. It's an ongoing issue in Indonesia. It has reached terrible proportions in China if you are Uighur, but for that matter if you are anyone who goes against the CCP. Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Syria, even Egypt. Where the worst human rights breaches occur, so too you will find repressed speech.
It's my firm belief that the reason Australia is a good country to live in is because of the ideals and principles brought to us by the reformation and the enlightenment. An important part of that is the live and let live ideal. It's a free country.
Of course, that only applies so long as you aren't hurting someone. The definition of 'hurt' has shifted too, I guess as a result of just how safe our society really is. The time of 'sticks and stones' seems to have gone, and we live in a society where some claim speech is violence, that safe spaces are needed. I do not believe in this, at least not to the extent I observe it today.
Life is not a peaceful joyride, and while it is far safer than it ever was, we do not protect our children by placing a bubble between them and hurtful things. We give them the tools to counter hurtful things, to develop a resilience. There's nothing revelatory in this; cognitive behaviour therapy is based on it.
And it is directly relevant to this issue. The best claim I have seen as to why Israel should not have posted what he did was that his post has the potential for mental hurt, even suicide.
It is a sad fact we are facing a suicide epidemic amongst our youth - teens to early twenties. At a time when we are more tuned in than ever to bigotry and hurt this is something to think about. I do not pretend to have the answer for this, but if you are interested Jonathan Haidt , a high profile American psychologist and academic, has some views well worth listening to. His belief is that we have overprotected our kids at the very time when they most needed the right tools to manage social pressures- the social media age.
Back to being PC. Political correctness isn't new, in fact I'd guess it has been around as long as there have been human tribal groups. We are a species that succeeded because we were and are highly effective in teams so it is to be expected we castigate those who don't go along with the team. That said, the old Jonah Lomu joke springs to mind:
'Boys, now remember, rugby is a team game. I don't want to see anyone hogging the ball: make sure you pass it to Jonah.'
Sometimes we think we are playing a team sport when maybe we are, maybe we aren't. It is by having a society where those people can speak we learn to be better. Bad ideas are dismissed, even ridiculed, good ideas gain traction.
Are we listening to the outliers out there who may see something we can't? Or are we shutting them up for being different?
Apologies again for long post.
TL
R - Our society is what it is because those who went before us learnt the value of a free society and the rights of the individual.It wasn't all that long ago it was the conservative side of town that expected political correctness, and hippies throughout the West were fighting for free speech, free opinions and free boobs (the burn the bra movement you turkeys out there!)
When I was a kid some boys actively bullied homosexuals and some men beat them up.
Imagine the courage it takes to speak up for homosexual rights when you are one if it is illegal. With people out there who believed you needed to be shouted down, or imprisoned or hurt.
Even now in some countries of the world, the public have no such rights to speak up for themselves or others. You go against the prevailing view of 'right' at your deepest peril. We saw it recently in Brunei. It's an ongoing issue in Indonesia. It has reached terrible proportions in China if you are Uighur, but for that matter if you are anyone who goes against the CCP. Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Syria, even Egypt. Where the worst human rights breaches occur, so too you will find repressed speech.
It's my firm belief that the reason Australia is a good country to live in is because of the ideals and principles brought to us by the reformation and the enlightenment. An important part of that is the live and let live ideal. It's a free country.
Of course, that only applies so long as you aren't hurting someone. The definition of 'hurt' has shifted too, I guess as a result of just how safe our society really is. The time of 'sticks and stones' seems to have gone, and we live in a society where some claim speech is violence, that safe spaces are needed. I do not believe in this, at least not to the extent I observe it today.
Life is not a peaceful joyride, and while it is far safer than it ever was, we do not protect our children by placing a bubble between them and hurtful things. We give them the tools to counter hurtful things, to develop a resilience. There's nothing revelatory in this; cognitive behaviour therapy is based on it.
And it is directly relevant to this issue. The best claim I have seen as to why Israel should not have posted what he did was that his post has the potential for mental hurt, even suicide.
It is a sad fact we are facing a suicide epidemic amongst our youth - teens to early twenties. At a time when we are more tuned in than ever to bigotry and hurt this is something to think about. I do not pretend to have the answer for this, but if you are interested Jonathan Haidt , a high profile American psychologist and academic, has some views well worth listening to. His belief is that we have overprotected our kids at the very time when they most needed the right tools to manage social pressures- the social media age.
Back to being PC. Political correctness isn't new, in fact I'd guess it has been around as long as there have been human tribal groups. We are a species that succeeded because we were and are highly effective in teams so it is to be expected we castigate those who don't go along with the team. That said, the old Jonah Lomu joke springs to mind:
'Boys, now remember, rugby is a team game. I don't want to see anyone hogging the ball: make sure you pass it to Jonah.'
Sometimes we think we are playing a team sport when maybe we are, maybe we aren't. It is by having a society where those people can speak we learn to be better. Bad ideas are dismissed, even ridiculed, good ideas gain traction.
Are we listening to the outliers out there who may see something we can't? Or are we shutting them up for being different?
Apologies again for long post.
The Honey Badger
Jim Lenehan (48)
Just assumed that Players association were representing him.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Which is unfortunate as his underlying message of love, repentence and forgiveness is obscured by the other stuff.
Taking isolated passages from any book, including the Bible, can often lead to misinterpretation of the underlying message. Often the warnings are given in the context of what people were or weren't doing at the time and without explaining the context the message is easily distorted without that necessarily being the intention.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Depends which translation of the Bible that one chooses to use: (note no mention of homosexuals)
1 Corinthians 6:9 Revised Standard Version (RSV)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
KevinO
Geoff Shaw (53)
I find one thing interesting from your post, go to any Hotel in Australia 5-10 years ago and there was always a bible in the draw next tot the bed. Have not seen one in any hotel I have stayed in the last few years, not that I am checking for a bible, just work in the industry so always check everything for cleanliness.
brokendown
Vay Wilson (31)
the bibles used to be distributed by the Gideons;maybe they dont do it anymore
I think it is the other way round that hotels no longer want them.
Gideons still actively offer it to accommodation providers and anyone can get one from their website if they so desire.
Tex
Greg Davis (50)
Certainly not having a crack at you, QH, but as someone who rarely reads the religious texts verbatim, I'm struck by what an unadulterated steaming pile of horseshit this stuff is.
That parts of it are selectively used to form moral bases and social behaviour is baffling.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
That's my point, assuming that you have read my posts, taking isolated passages without taking the context into account doesn't present and accurate picture or meaning of the words. See post #1486 on this page.
I posted the quotation to illustrate that the passage in question doesn't use the term homosexuals in many common translations. By extension, the Folau post in question didn't need to use the word either to still be a valid quotation from the Bible. And as it seems that the use of that one word is the problem, then it seems to me that it's problem which could have easily been avoided.
Any who has even learnt another language or languages will attest that translation is a very inexact science and trying to translate something which was originally written in Classical Greek into modern English isn't as straightforward as many would like to think.
Strewthcobber
Andrew Slack (58)
QH, as I understand it, Izzy's church believes that the King James Version Bible is the Word of God and only legitimate translation
The Honey Badger
Jim Lenehan (48)
Curiosity got to me. Looks like they are still busy handing them out, at least in places where political correctness hasn't got out of hand. Not sure how they fund this distribution, AFAIK they dont sell advertising in between the pages of the bible.
From Wiki,
Gideons International is an evangelical Christian association founded in 1899 in Wisconsin. The Gideons' primary activity is distributing copies of the Bible free of charge. This Bible distribution is a global enterprise taking place in some 200 countries, territories and possessions. The association's members focus on distributing complete Bibles, New Testaments, or portions thereof. These copies are printed in over 100 languages. The association is most widely known for its Bibles placed in lodging rooms. The Gideons also distribute to hospitals and other medical offices, schools and colleges as well as jails and prisons. The association takes its name from the Biblical figure Gideon depicted in Judges 6.
The Gideons began distributing free Bibles, the endeavor for which it is chiefly known, in 1908, when the first Bibles were placed in the rooms of the Superior Hotel in Superior, Montana. Members of The Gideons International currently distribute over 80 million Scriptures annually, and the numbers are growing, especially in places like Brazil, India, and Asia. On average, more than two copies of the Bible are distributed per second through Gideons International.[2] In late April 2015, Gideons distributed their historic two billionth Scripture. The distribution of the first one billion Bibles and New Testaments by Gideon members spanned 93 years (1908 to 2001). The second billion was attained in less than 14 years (2002 to 2015).[3]
The headquarters of Gideons International is in Nashville, Tennessee.
The Honey Badger
Jim Lenehan (48)
So whats defines Sexual Perverts? Does the bible have Homosexuals in that grouping ?
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
It's a beautiful translation, but even it doesn't use the word homosexual. I question whether Israel has a deep enough knowledge of Jacobean English to correctly interpret that version.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
The_Brown_Hornet
John Eales (66)
What you've posted largely aligns my view on a lot of social issues -- freedom of the individual and having speech we don't like challenged by more speech, rather than censorship. That said, if this comes down to a contractual issue for Izzy and I guess that's part of what the tribunal was about then so be it. I guess the courts will eventually sort that question out.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
It's not defined, it's open to interpretation.
The term homosexual only dates from the 1880s and was first used by German psychologists. Long after the Bible was written.
The Honey Badger
Jim Lenehan (48)
nor effeminate???
effeminate
/ɪˈfɛmɪnət/
adjective
derogatory
adjective: effeminate
- (of a man) having characteristics regarded as typical of a woman; unmanly.
"he lisps and his handshake is effeminate"
synonyms: womanish, unmanly, effete, foppish, affected, niminy-piminy, mincing, posturing;More
informalcampy, queeny;
informalponcey, limp-wristed, pansyish, faggy
"as his manicured fingers played with the gold medallion around his neck, he looked very effeminate"
antonyms: manly
Kpc
Herbert Moran (7)
The director of the Russian club Enisei-STM wants to conclude a short contract to Folau for 3 months (November, December, January) while participating in the European Challenge Cup 2019-20. But for the Enisei-STM this will be the last tournament in Europe. EPCR is blocking the participation of Russians and other non Six Nation teams. Therefore, Enisei-STM and another club from Siberia, Krasny Yar, are considering the possibility of participating in Rapid Rugby since 2020. Ideal for Folau to go to Russia for 3 months. If he likes it, then sign a multi-year contract with the Enisei-STM and play Rapid Rugby. How do you like the idea? In Russia, he will have no problems.
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