Wallabies 2023

[Doritos Day]

What happens if Rennie gets us to the semi's or the final?

Look at Australia's draw - making the semis is not really a difficult task or glorious achievement.

They essentially have to beat Wales+Argentina, OR England to make the SF. It's as easy as you could possibly get.

The issue for Rennie is more of timing. Australia could make the final and he would still be unlikely to coach beyond that because R.A. (rightfully) can't justify an extension before that point, whereas Rennie (and all coaches) want to have their plans in place for the next cycle before that tournament ends.

The only way he could coach in 2024 and beyond is if they win the cup and there's mass contract breakings, or R.A. sit on their hands until before the tournament and offer an extension after they sweep TRC and win back the Bledisloe. Fantasy stuff.

 

[dru]

Thanks for posting. Pretty empty article.

Way too much is made of the Italy loss. The team put out there was dross, which was forced upon him by playing five tests in a row. That result lies at the feet of R.A. not Rennie.

5 tests in a row against opposition at that level may well have been an issue, but the make up, build up and training of the team against Italy was whole-heartedly Rennie. Complete disdain for an opposition that clearly deserved more. He is not absolved of the injury tsunami either.

I like the guy, but that was an unmitigated fuck up. Rennie is the first to be responsible. I don't doubt that might be others.

There is in no way too much made of this.

 

[Derpus]

5 tests in a row against opposition at that level may well have been an issue, but the make up, build up and training of the team against Italy was whole-heartedly Rennie. Complete disdain for an opposition that clearly deserved more. He is not absolved of the injury tsunami either.

I like the guy, but that was an unmitigated fuck up. Rennie is the first to be responsible. I don't doubt that might be others.

There is in no way too much made of this.

The selections were not ideal but having a rookie 10 on there for, what, three minutes? Utterly pointless and that was what cost us the game. We had otherwise done (just) enough to pull it back. Pulling the 10 with 10 minutes to go also cost us the French game IMO.

We walked away from a tour that could have been 4/5 if not for decisions like those.

 

[rodha]

Fark off the kiwi coaches and pull in a local bloke who has just as good credentials, much better than Rennie or Razor no question.

He's not a better head coach than Razor by any metric, as a technical coach sure that's believable, but in terms of who can lead, motivate & inspire a group of players and fits the characteristics of a modern day head coach in 2023 - not 2003... Razor is no question better skilled in that department. Razor is part of a new emergent era of collaborative young coaches who strive to develop inclusive & empathetic team environments.

The top-down dictator bully coaching approach used by Boomers like Eddie is becoming a thing of the past, the my way or highway dictator bully approach is proven to not be effective with the current generation, and most research indicates that it's not sustainable over a long period of time anyway!

 

[PhilClinton]

The top-down dictator bully coaching approach used by Boomers like Eddie is becoming a thing of the past, the my way or highway dictator bully approach is proven to not be effective with the current generation, and most research indicates that it's not sustainable over a long period of time anyway!

This forum loves its generalisations and painting any ‘old’ coaches as useless and outdated.

Has anyone here actually been coached by Jones in the last say, 5 years or been involved in his camps or coaching staff? I only ask so we can get some qualified insight into his dictatorship.

It could be the case, but is it also possible to believe these top tier coaches are so far ahead of their game because they’re adaptable and evolving their styles.

The example I will use is Wayne Bennett. He’s painted as the ‘grand mastermind’ coach, the old head who’s becoming less relevant etc. but speak to any player who’s been involved with him during his last NRL tenure and involvement with the Maroons and it’s pretty clear he’s fostering an inclusive, player driven leadership environment.

Just saying, this whole forum seems to have turned into some ageist army against anyone coach claim their super.

 

[TSR]

He's not a better head coach than Razor by any metric, as a technical coach sure that's believable, but in terms of who can lead, motivate & inspire a group of players and fits the characteristics of a modern day head coach in 2023 - not 2003... Razor is no question better skilled in that department. Razor is part of a new emergent era of young coaches who strive to develop inclusive & empathetic team environments.

The top-down dictator bully coaching approach used by Boomers like Eddie is becoming a thing of the past, the my way or highway dictator bully approach is proven to not be effective with the current generation and is not sustainable over a long period of time anyway!

I dunno - you could argue he’s better head coach at international level than Razor on any metric you want to throw up. Despite his last 2 yrs he still ends comfortably the best England coach. But he’s a coach (like many) who has a set shelf life in any given gig and he appears to have passed it in the England role. It should also be noted that he is a coach who has shown he has capacity to learn from his mistakes. The strength of his demand internationally also suggests he is considered by plenty to still have plenty to offer.

Whether he is the best option for Australia at this time is a very different question.

 

[rodha]

I dunno - you could argue he’s better head coach at international level than Razor on any metric you want to throw up. Despite his last 2 yrs he still ends comfortably the best England coach. But he’s a coach (like many) who has a set shelf life in any given gig and he appears to have passed it in the England role. It should also be noted that he is a coach who has shown he has capacity to learn from his mistakes. The strength of his demand internationally also suggests he is considered by plenty to still have plenty to offer.

Short-term it can work. Long term it just doesn't. That's Jones' modus operandi and that's how that style of leadership works.

The fact is that it doesn't continue to work. He was no longer a good coach for England. His approach had evidently drained, exhausted, demotivated, & confused the England players. That's poor coaching.

 

[rodha]

This forum loves its generalisations and painting any ‘old’ coaches as useless and outdated.

It's not a generalization, it's more or less the reason England gave him the boot, and Wallabies before that.

There's interesting evidence about leadership styles and short & long-term impact on team performance.

An autocratic, whip-cracking, derriere-fire-lighting leadership style, as Jones' seemed to be, is often beneficial in the short-term, or in emergent situations, e.g. backs against the wall 'siege mentality' sort of thing.

In the long run however it is deleterious to team performance.

 

[TSR]

Short-term it can work. Long term it just doesn't. That's Jones' modus operandi and that's how that style of leadership works.

The fact is that it doesn't continue to work. He was no longer a good coach for England. His approach had evidently drained, exhausted, demotivated, & confused the England players. That's poor coaching.

Sure. But maybe a short term hit of Eddie is the right move at this point of time. I don’t believe that myself - but you could make a fair argument that a personality like Jones is exactly what we need.

Personally if we are looking at the best option for the long term, I’d argue the governance structure and contracting framework are far more important than who the coach is.

Plenty of very good coaches are only very good for a short period of time. And a whole lot of others never got tested on that because they moved on relatively quickly. Brian Smith springs to mind. Cheika seems that as well.

 

[dru]

7 years is short term? OK.

 

[rodha]

Sure. But maybe a short term hit of Eddie is the right move at this point of time. I don’t believe that myself - but you could make a fair argument that a personality like Jones is exactly what we need.

There's no doubt Eddie has a wealth of technical knowledge - but that's no longer among the most important attributes for a head coach in this day and age, he'd make a great specialist coach though, perhaps an attacking technical advisor - 2007 with Springboks.

The Wallabies currently have a solid nucleus of young talent emerging from a strong recent U20's campaign, but many of them appear hesitant, restricted, and go into their shell on the international stage. What they need is a manager who can install a great level of confidence in them. Marcus Smith, for example appeared to have very little confidence and freedom to express his abilities naturally playing for England, compared to Billy Millard/Nick Evans at Harlequins. That reflects poorly on Jones as a head coach.

On the other hand, Razor is probably one of the best coaches going around at installing confidence & positive belief into a playing group. Fostering the potential of young talent. I don't think that's a major strength of Eddie's, at least anymore. Deans was also good at getting young players (O'Connor, Beale, Ioane, Genia, etc..) to believe in themselves & realize their potential, helping them individually to map-out their ambitions. Razor is the dude you want for fostering the potential of Australia's next generation talent.

The most significant differences - for those inevitably concerned about another Crusader's coach potentially repeating history... is that Razor appears to boast superior man-management abilities and is also quite noticeably a significantly more impartial selector than Dingo Deans. He doesn't play favourites or hold pathetic grudges. The areas where Robbie had shortcomings Razor does not!

 

[KOB1987]

I’m keeping a 100% open mind on Scott Robertson but can someone point me to any intel that says he has any interest whatsoever in coaching the wallabies?

 

[KOB1987]

I wasn’t expecting much from Halloran, and she’s certainly delivered…

I’m not in the journalism game and I’m very much left brained, but I read that article and while I can see that there is a fair amount of speculation there, what is actually wrong with it? Isn’t that the job of a journalist, to write a story? Or is it just that it’s NewsCorp?

 

[Doritos Day]

I’m keeping a 100% open mind on Scott Robertson but can someone point me to any intel that says he has any interest whatsoever in coaching the wallabies?

His first preference is obviously coaching NZ, his second is to coach somewhere at test level.

Post-RWC the open jobs will (roughly) be NZ, Aus, Japan, Scotland, Argentina. I don't think it's a long bow to draw that the Wallabies job is more attractive than the other ones on this list.

The other T1 nations either recently hired or won't employ a foreigner.

He might prefer to wait 4 years until the NZ job is on offer again, who knows, but that seems unlikely. If you want to coach a test team, now is the time to get in.

 

[rodha]

I’m keeping a 100% open mind on Scott Robertson but can someone point me to any intel that says he has any interest whatsoever in coaching the wallabies?

Staggering World Cup goal could bite All Blacks

Snubbed coach's ambitions could lead him to Wallabies

wwos.nine.com.au

 

[KOB1987]

Good info, thanks guys. Who else would be in consideration for the AB gig post fozzie?

 

[TSR]

7 years is short term? OK.

Sorry. Fair comment.

I more meant that Cheika probably should have moved on after a shorter stint. But it is probably still a tenuous example to the point I was trying to make.

 

[Joe Blow]

He's not a better head coach than Razor by any metric, as a technical coach sure that's believable, but in terms of who can lead, motivate & inspire a group of players and fits the characteristics of a modern day head coach in 2023 - not 2003... Razor is no question better skilled in that department. Razor is part of a new emergent era of collaborative young coaches who strive to develop inclusive & empathetic team environments.

The top-down dictator bully coaching approach used by Boomers like Eddie is becoming a thing of the past, the my way or highway dictator bully approach is proven to not be effective with the current generation, and most research indicates that it's not sustainable over a long period of time anyway!

Says you but Eddie Jones has the runs on the board and a whole lot more international experience than Razor, who has………….zilch. Much the same as Rennie when he came on board.
Once again, if we have an Australian who has the credentials and who is available and willing then we should choose them over any foreigner. I’d take Jake White before another untested provincial coach. A part of Rennies problem has been that he has not been able to put the right people around him and has resisted RAs efforts to put an independent selector in place. His overall management skills are lacking as he cannot see what he needs. Provincial and test coaching are a very different animal.
I vote Eddie Jones in 2023-4.

 

[Derpus]

Says you but Eddie Jones has the runs on the board and a whole lot more international experience than Razor, who has………….zilch. Much the same as Rennie when he came on board.
Once again, if we have an Australian who has the credentials and who is available and willing then we should choose them over any foreigner. I’d take Jake White before another untested provincial coach. A part of Rennies problem has been that he has not been able to put the right people around him and has resisted RAs efforts to put an independent selector in place. His overall management skills are lacking as he cannot see what he needs. Provincial and test coaching are a very different animal.
I vote Eddie Jones in 2023-4.

He had a highly rated team of coaches around him? Everyone was lauding his choices of assistant coaches.

 

[Joe Blow]

He had a highly rated team of coaches around him? Everyone was lauding his choices of assistant coaches.

Mostly jumped ship now